Rubio’s eligibility

Discussion in 'Law & Justice' started by Flanders, Apr 16, 2012.

  1. Flanders

    Flanders New Member

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    Marco Rubio has repeatedly said he is not going to be a candidate for vice president, yet he is being touted for the job more than any other Republican. Ever since his name surfaced I’ve said “No way. The guy is not eligible.” I have not changed my mind, but there is a possibility worth considering.

    Rubio on the ticket might force the SCOTUS to rule on his eligibility between the day he is placed on the ticket, and election day. Admittedly, that is not much time for the Supreme Court to hear the case and hand down a ruling. It’s also a dangerous strategy if the Court rules him ineligible after he is elected.

    Obviously, the High Court refused to touch Hussein’s eligibility. However, Rubio might be a way to get the Court to rule on the meaning of “natural born citizen.”

    Anyway here is a great explanation of the meaning of natural born citizen:


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=esiZZ-1R7e8

    The video came from this informative article:

    GOP 'superstar' for VP faces eligibility questions
    National Archives document casts doubt on 'natural-born' status
    Published: 15 hours ago

    Although the name of Florida Sen. Marco Rubio is mentioned more than any other as a potential GOP vice presidential candidate, a document found in the National Archives raises questions about whether the popular U.S. senator is actually qualified constitutionally to serve as president or vice president.

    The Petition for Naturalization on behalf of Mario Rubio, the senator’s Cuban father, has been retrieved from the National Archives and posted online by the PixelPatriot website, confirming that Marco Rubio was about four years old when his parents became U.S. citizens. Specifically, Mario Rubio was naturalized as an American citizen in 1975, based on the Sept. 9, 1975, date on the petition; Marco Rubio was born in 1971.

    So why would all this matter insofar as the senator’s eligibility to serve as vice president? The question is whether Rubio is a “natural born citizen” – constitutionally required of all presidents – a unique citizenship status defined by the Founding Fathers, according to many legal experts, as being the offspring of two citizens of the country.

    Of course, the same question has dogged Barack Obama since before the 2008 election and continues to this day. While Obama claims to have been born in Hawaii, the birth document he released with great fanfare at the White House in April 2011 has been determined by multiple document experts as well as a six-month law enforcement investigation almost certainly to be a forgery.

    Yet even if Obama could document a Hawaii birth, he still arguably would not qualify as a “natural born citizen” of the United States since he was not born of two U.S. citizen parents, Obama’s father having been a Kenyan national.

    Compounding all the controversy over presidential eligibility is the fact that the Constitution does not define “natural born citizen,” requiring legal and historical research to determine precisely what the Founders meant.

    Attorney Herb Titus, who has taught constitutional law for nearly 30 years and was the founding dean of the College of Law and Government at Regent University in Virginia Beach, Va., says the “natural born” language was used because the Founding Fathers wanted a leader without divided loyalties.

    “That’s precisely what a natural-born citizen is,” Titus said in a YouTube video, “one who is born to a father and a mother, each of whom is a citizen of the United States or whatever other country they’re claiming natural-born citizenship in.”

    His explanation:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=esiZZ-1R7e8

    Concerns over the loyalties of the commander-in-chief were raised in a 1787 letter from John Jay to George Washington.

    Wrote Jay, who later became president of the Continental Congress and the first U.S. Supreme Court chief justice: “Permit me to hint, whether it would be wise and seasonable to provide a strong check to the admission of Foreigners into the administration of our national Government; and to declare expressly that the Commander in Chief of the American army shall not be given to nor devolve on, any but a natural born Citizen.”

    In fact, Congress in 1790 defined “natural born citizen” as a child born of two American citizens, but the law containing the definition was repealed several years later.

    “The Law of Nations,” a 1758 work by Swiss legal philosopher Emmerich de Vattel, was read by many of the American founders and informed their understanding of law later established in the Constitution.

    Vattel specified that a natural-born citizen is born of two citizens and made it clear that the father’s citizenship was a loyalty issue.

    Explains Vattel: “The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens. As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights. … In order to be of the country, it is necessary that a person be born of a father who is a citizen; for, if he is born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country.”

    Also, in 2008, when the U.S. Senate resolved that Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., the Republican presidential nominee, was a natural born citizen, it specified that his parents were American citizens at the time of his birth.

    The non-binding resolution, co-sponsored by then-Sen. Barack Obama, stated that McCain – born to two American citizens on an American military base in the Panama Canal Zone in 1936, “is a ‘natural born citizen’ under Article II, Section 1, of the Constitution of the United States.”

    The Article II Superpac posted an analysis arguing that the parents of a “natural born citizen” must be citizens at the time of his or her birth. The organization noted that Supreme Court rulings suggest the term applies only to those born on U.S. soil to citizen parents.

    Joseph Farah, founder and CEO of WND.com, also has argued that the definition of “natural born citizen” excludes Rubio.

    “Rubio is, quite simply, not a ‘natural born citizen’ by the accepted legal, English-language standard as it has been known throughout American history. He was born in Florida to two non-U.S. citizen parents,” he wrote.

    “I know this is not a popular notion among Republicans, just as it wasn’t among Democrats when challenges were made to Obama. However, the Constitution should always trump political expediency.

    “This is not a ‘technicality,’ as some might suggest. If we don’t adhere to the Constitution on matters as significant as presidential eligibility, then the Constitution ceases to be a meaningful document for guiding our nation. Indeed, it becomes the kind of ‘living document’ that many liberals have claimed it should be – ever-changing to new circumstances,” he said.

    http://www.wnd.com/2012/04/top-gop-choice-for-vp-faces-eligibility-questions/
     
  2. SFJEFF

    SFJEFF New Member

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    Of course Rubio is eligible. All Americans grew up knowing that anyone born in the United States(with the exception of diplomats) is a natural born citizen.

    The efforts of a few Birthers and xenophobes to pretend that Rubio and Obama are not eligible don't mean a thing.
     
  3. rahl

    rahl Well-Known Member

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    rubio was born in the US, and is of course eligibile

    /thread
     
  4. Margot

    Margot Account closed, not banned

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    Such BS.. Rubio's citizenship status is NOT in question.
     
  5. Phil

    Phil Active Member

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    Don't forget John McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone and he was determined to qualify.
    Romney recently said his father was born in Mexico. How could he have been considered in 1968?
    Alexander Hamilton was born on an island somewhere, but he was considered a possible candidate before his sudden death.
     
  6. BullsLawDan

    BullsLawDan New Member

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    How do the birthers know the circumstances of Rubio's birth without his birth certificate?
     
  7. Flanders

    Flanders New Member

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    To Phil: See this thread:

    http://www.politicalforum.com/law-justice/227413-uncle-sam-lady-liberty.html

    To BullsLawDan: Records. He was born in Cedars of Lebanon Hospital in Miami. Also, his parents’ naturalization application, academic records, etc. Nothing is being hidden from public scrutiny. Note that the Democrats are not looking into Rubio’s records. They should be all over the guy who spells sure defeat for Hussein according to the pundits.

    Or maybe Democrats are waiting for Rubio to get the nomination before exposing his ineligibility? I’d really like to see how Hussein & Company handle that one!

    The question is his eligibility —— not his citizenship. Here’s a scenario that offers an interesting outcome to the meaning of natural born citizen.

    The presidential nominee selects Rubio as his running mate. The SCOTUS fast tracks the case as it did with the Florida recount case in 2000. Before election day in November the Court rules that Rubio is NOT eligible. Rubio takes himself out of the line of succession. Call it an American version of a Morganatic marriage. The Republicans go on to win the election. Rubio is vice president. The constitutional meaning of natural born citizen is settled once. Hussein is gone. Everybody is happy.
     
  8. Margot

    Margot Account closed, not banned

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    Hahahahaha.. if he was born on US soil he is a natural born US citizen.. just like Jindal and Obama.

    Birthers just get dumber and dumber.
     
  9. rahl

    rahl Well-Known Member

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    rubio was born on US soil, and is of course eligibile. parents citizenship have exactly zero relevance to their childrens US citizenship if born on US soil.
     
  10. SFJEFF

    SFJEFF New Member

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    You clearly missed Bulls point. How do you know he was born in Miami? I am willing to assume he was, just like I was willing to assume that Obama was born in Hawaii, Bush was born in New England, Clinton was born in Arkansas. But Birthers claim that according to the Constitution, Obama must provide extraordinary proofs of his birth in the U.S.- yet for Rubio and Romney etc- Birthers are just willing to assume that any anectdote they have heard of their birth is sufficient for them.

    And nothing being hidden from public scrutiny? Tell me what documents regarding Rubio himself have we seen that we have not seen as much or more of about Obama? We have seen Obama's birth certificate...but Rubio's is still 'hidden from public scrutiny'. Yet that is okay with you.



    Considering there aren't any Democrats or Republicans who actually believe he is ineligible....what are they supposed to expose? The only thing likely to be exposed is more Birther idiocy.

    I would say Rubio wouldn't be happy. Nor would the majority of the American people, who would wonder what possible mental derangment overcome the Supreme Court for them to overturn the concensus legal and popular understanding of Natural Born Citizen. Just another idiotic Birther pipe dream.

    The reality is that I doubt that anyone will even file an objection to Rubio's candidacy.

    After all- he isn't Obama.
     
  11. Really People?

    Really People? New Member

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    Wow...

    The dumb will not cease, will it...

    Strange that only one of them showed up to protest Rubio, though, isn't it?
     
  12. Flanders

    Flanders New Member

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    To SFJEFF: I accept that Rubio was born in Miami in 1971. I’ve not heard anyone suggest otherwise. If you want to see his birth certificate go get it. Should officials at Cedars of Lebanon Hospital stonewall you, or a forged birth certificate turns up you’ll make the case for Rubio’s ineligibility even stronger.

    And why would you want Rubio’s birth certificate anyway? Did you not get the memo? Birth certificates are passé. First a Certificate of Live Birth was offered as proof of Hussein’s constitutional eligibility. Then a questionable reproduction of a long form birth certificate was released as conclusive proof. Now, Hussein’s attorney is singing a different tune:


    Obama lawyer: Birth certificate irrelevant to eligibility
    You won't believe judge's opinion of disputed document
    Published: 18 hours ago
    by JEROME CORSI

    An attorney representing Barack Obama has argued in court to prevent the long-form birth certificate image that was released by the White House nearly a year ago from being placed into evidence.

    It was on April 10 at a three-hour eligibility hearing before a New Jersey administrative law judge that the argument came from Alexandra Hill.

    She is legal counsel representing Obama’s re-election campaign, and argued then that New Jersey law does not require Obama to present a valid birth certificate to establish his qualifications under Article 2, Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution to be on the New Jersey Democratic Party primary ballot.

    Hill repeatedly explained to Judge Jeff S. Masin that, “We do not believe the president’s birth certificate is relevant to this case.”

    Agreeing with Hill, Masin ruled in a written opinion the same day that New Jersey law does not require Obama to produce any proof he is eligible to be president in order to be placed on the primary ballot.

    Noting that New Jersey law allows a nominating petition endorsing a particular person for president to be filed without the consent of the person endorsed, Masin said “There is no obligation upon the person endorsed to prove his or her qualification for office.”

    At the hearing, Masin prevented petitioner’s counsel, Mario Apuzzo, who has argued eligibility issues in the courts before, from placing Obama’s birth certificate into evidence. Nor was Apuzzo allowed to call to the stand a witness willing to offer expert testimony that Obama’s birth certificate is a forgery.

    Is Obama ready to throw the birth certificate under the bus?

    “What is emerging in the various state legal challenges to including President Obama on the presidential ballot appears to be an attempt by the White House to divorce itself from the Obama long-form birth certificate released,” said Mike Zullo, the lead investigator in Arizona Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio’s law enforcement investigation into Obama’s birth certificate and eligibility to be president.

    Challenges to Obama’s name on the 2012 election ballot have appeared in more than half a dozen states already.

    At a press conference in Phoenix, Arizona, on March 1, Arpaio announced his law enforcement investigators had established probable cause to believe Obama’s birth certificate and his Selective Service Registration card are forgeries.

    Zullo questioned why the White House did not instruct Hill to champion the birth certificate as legitimate.

    “The White House appears to be acting as if the Obama birth certificate is of no consequence in establishing the fact of Obama’s birth,” Zullo continued.

    “Instead of producing the birth certificate to the New Jersey secretary of state and arguing to Judge Masin that the document was legitimate, Obama’s legal counsel did everything she could to keep the document from coming into evidence. Why?”

    Reviewing the three-hour court hearing, it is clear Hill remained adamant on the birth certificate being irrelevant in New Jersey.

    Hill affirmed to Masin in response to a direct question from the bench that Obama’s birth certificate had never been presented to the New Jersey secretary of state to establish his eligibility and she affirmed that the Obama re-election campaign had no intention of doing so.

    At one point in the hearing, Masin, apparently agreeing with Hill’s argument, dramatically explained to Apuzzo that Obama’s birth certificate was not at issue in this case.

    “I have nothing before me that I can look at and can say, ‘Okay, this is what has been produced as his [Obama’s] birth certificate,’” the judge said from the bench.

    “There is nothing here,” he continued, referring to the birth certificate. “The campaign has not produced me anything and I assume you’re not planning on doing that. The campaign hasn’t shown me anything on the Internet. There’s no birth certificate that has been presented to me – good, bad, indifferent – real, forged, certified, anything – it’s not here.”

    Apuzzo pressed to be put on the record a stipulation by White House counsel that the Obama campaign was not utilizing the long-form birth certificate as proof that Obama was born in Hawaii or as proof he was qualified to be president as a “natural born citizen” under the Constitution.

    In response, Hill repeated she had no intention of presenting Obama’s birth certificate to the court.

    “It’s not here,” she told Masin. “I don’t have it.”

    “There appears to be no affirmative requirement that a person endorsed in a nominating petition for the presidency present to the Secretary of State any certification or other proof that he is qualified for the office, at least not at the time when nominating petitions are to be accepted or rejected by the secretary,” Masin wrote in his decision.

    “In this matter, as the petitioners’ objection is that Mr. Obama has not provided the secretary with proof of the place of his birth by means of a birth certificate or otherwise, the lack of any obligation on his part to do so means he has not failed to act in accordance with the applicable law.”

    http://www.wnd.com/2012/04/obama-lawyer-birth-certificate-irrelevant-to-eligbility/
     
  13. Really People?

    Really People? New Member

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    I'm not sure if you're aware or not, but, you wouldn't be able to go to a hospital and request a copy of anyone's birth certificate, because, and, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, they don't keep BC's at the hospital...

    Also, there's the fact that you can't just demand someone's personal records on a whim, and expect to receive them...lol

    As far as Obama's BC, you already know how crazy you sound, so, I won't belabor the point...
     
  14. Margot

    Margot Account closed, not banned

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    Jerome Corsi is a charlatan and a huge liar.......

    Nobody with a brain would even bother challenging Rubio, Jindal, Obama or McCain's citizenship status.

    Why don't YOU run around and start applying for birth certificates?
     
  15. Margot

    Margot Account closed, not banned

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    LOLOL.. NO they don't keep BCs at the hospital.. but you realize you are dealing with a really DUMB bunch.
     
  16. Really People?

    Really People? New Member

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    Oh, I know...

    This ain't my first rodeo...
     
  17. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    It did no such thing.
     
  18. SFJEFF

    SFJEFF New Member

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    What a typical Birther. Don't demand any proof of eligiblity from anyone other than Obama. Believe any rumor of birth in the U.S. but reject any actual official evidence.

    As I pointed out- I don't want Rubio's birth certificate, I merely point out once again the hypocrisy of Birthers BC demands for Obama- and only Obama.

    And what is the different tune from President Obama's attorney? Nowhere does Obama's attorney ever discuss the evidentiary value of the actual birth certificates issued the State of Hawaii.

    Oh and by the way- the Judge in this case also shot down your fake 'two citizen' parent requirement.

    Funny how neither you or Corsi mention one more abject rejection by the courts.

    You and WND....lol.







    What no one should believe is Corsi.

    Seriously- what kind of 'journalist' would quote someone like Zullo- that Corsi is currently a co-author with on a book of the same subject- without mentioning that small little bit of conflict of interest? Not one mention of Corsi and Zullo being partners, both earning money off of this subject.

    Corsi....WND....what jokes.
     
  19. Flanders

    Flanders New Member

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    To SFJEFF: Get it right for once. There is no doubt that his parents were NOT US citizens at the time of his birth. He was born in 1971. His parents became citizens in 1975. Rubio admits it. So why would anybody who believes he is ineligible look for proof of his eligibility? You and your kind simply state he is eligible. That is not proof. At the very least it dos not stand up to:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=esiZZ-1R7e8

    Everything Titus says about Hussein applies to Rubio.
     
  20. Margot

    Margot Account closed, not banned

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    Doesn't matter that Rubio's parents weren't citizens.. Rubio was born in Miami.

    Corsi is using dupes like you.
     

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