Sincere request to help me understand why you feel abortion is not murder.

Sorry Frank, unintentional, missed that one when I was on my phone apparently.

I appreciate you sharing your new viewpoint, no sarcasm at all. I can see where your value on the legal definition can justify your position from your view.

Again we are separated by an abyss of our beliefs. Your definition presupposes that because it is lawful, it is right. I totally disagree. History is fraught with laws that were/are morally wrong.

The original Hebrew translation of the Ten Commandments says "Though shall not murder"...using the Hebrew word "ratsakh" which is generally translated as the modern day equivalent of premeditated killing or manslaughter. So to me, and the original law of God, it would indeed be murder.

Now three alternative points of view for why some believe that abortion is not murder: A fetus is not a person until it is born; a group of cells is not a human (though would like to hear when those cells become human); abortion is not murder because it's legal.

Please correct my paraphrase if I have misrepresented it.

 

Lol whatever Jefferson was he was no christian and for most of the last two thousands years until recently he would had been burn to death as while he was of the opinion that Jesus was a great man and a great teacher he rejected the idea that he was the son of god and born from a virgin birth.

The so call Jefferson bible was just the new testament with all the supernatural elements removed from it.

 

Thank you, Left.

I do not do "believing"...but I have opinions...which is what I shared.

Not in any way.

I have not said anything about it being "right."

You asked why I think it is not murder...and I answered that question.

Okay...but the reason abortion is not murder...is because it is legal. A capitial punishment execution is not murder...it is legal.

I will not discuss the god/Bible stuff in this context...unless you are willing to tell me what your religion is.

We can then discuss it in that context.

I think that pretty well covers the opinions I've seen expressed here of the "it is not murder" side. Until born...a fetus or embryo or zygote...is NOT a human...and abortion is legal. "Murder" requires both a person and illegality.

 

I would love to continue this discussion. Would you like to start another thread on the religious section? You kick it off and I'll jump in with my opinion....or I will with your quote, with your permission, if you prefer.

Otherwise, do you have an opinion on why it's not murder?

 

Excellent argument, and I can appreciate your literal semantic approach. So my second question then to you specifically is, is abortion "right", as in moral/good/just, etc. by/in/and of itself? Is so, it only because it is legal?

Curious, why would that matter? Quid pro quo?

I understand your opinion, vehemently disagree, but at least I understand your view. Thank you.

 

First murder is a legal term not just a killing for example if I was attack and needed to killed another human being to save myself that would be killing but not a murder.

So not all killings of even fully human beings can be called a murder.

Next is it your opinion that there is a human being once the zygote cell come into being and any attempts to destroy the zygote cell is murder of a human being?

That one cell have the power to become a human being if everything go right but is that one cell a human being in your eyes?

To me a fetus let alone a zygote cell is not a human being even if it had a likelihood of perhaps becoming a human being and the woman who body it exist in have a hundred percent right to try to carry it to term or aborted it.

To me, the woman rights and wishes are far more important element in this situation.

 

I do not get into the question of it being "moral/good/just." That would require a frame of reference that I am not willing to erect. You apparently are willing to do so.

I think abortion is an abomination for a woman to go through.

But...if a woman decides to terminate a pregnancy occurring in her own body...IN MY OPINION she should have the right to do so without any interference from anyone on the outside.

You quoted from the Bible and spoke of "the laws of" some god.

I cannot discuss the ramifications of those things reasonably without knowing your religion...knowing what god...knowing the parts of the Bible you find comfortable.

Is there a problem with divulging your religion?

I was born a Catholic...and later in life became an agnostic. I have no problem with sharing that.

You are welcome.

Not sure of what you disagree with, though.

I agreed with everything you wrote!

 

Agreed, there are times when killing is justified, but not murder. Murder is not only a legal term, but moral term (hence my reference to the Hebrew word) and I intended the original post as both with that term. My belief is that it is murder simply because a fetus is a human being and it is morally wrong and illegal, hence my asking why others thought it was not murder.

Per my previous Biblical reference, I believe the soul exists even prior to conception, and the cells are man/woman as soon as the sperm and egg conjoin, at the moment of conception.

So, is the zygote (conjoined, replicating sperm/egg) "alive" or "dead"? If "alive", what species is it?

I am clear on your opinion, thank you.

 

I should have clarified, I vehemently disagree that a zygote is not human.

No problem at all divulging my religion, I am a Christian. Just curious why it would matter. I believe there is only one God, a triune entity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I quoted from the Bible which I believe is His unerring, infallible, direct Word of God. Do you know of another God in the Bible, other than the false gods He mentions?

 

Meaning what?

Meaning what?

 

So it is your opinion that a zygote is a human being?

So it is your opinion that there is only one god...and that god is described in the Bible?

Why do you suppose the god of the Bible thinks killing is so bad? The god orders its followers to kill all sorts of people...including children. The god actually kills lots of people...including children.

Why would you base your "moral/good/just" objections to abortion to anything in the Bible?

 

Let me change the context to something we can do but it costs more.

If the fetus is removed unharmed and intact then no act of aggression has been committed against it by a person. If the fetus dies it will be from natural causes and not due to an act of aggression against it.

Does that make you feel better? We can, at anytime, remove any possible argument for "murder" by simply requiring the removal of the fetus unharmed and intact. More costly to have a natural death but certainly something that can be done.......

OR

We can address this based upon the "Natural Rights" of the person even if we grant personhood to the fetus. Under Natural Law "murder" is the premeditated violation of the Natural Right to Life of another person. First we need address the criteria for a Natural Right of the Person.

A Natural Right is inherent in the person, not dependent upon another person, it cannot infringe upon or violate the Rights of another Person, and does not impose an involuntary obligation upon another Person.

The life of the fetus is dependent upon the woman (dependent upon another person). Because of the "dependency" the fetus has not yet established it's own Natural Right to Life. Because the Right to Life of the fetus doesn't exist as long as it's dependent upon the woman the Right to Life can't be violated. Murder cannot exist without the Right to Life being violated so the abortion cannot be murder.

There are several other reasons based upon Natural Rights but they're not even worth going into related to "murder" but the do provide the woman with the Natural Rights necessary for her to have the abortion.

 

I wonder why anyone would think their religion should rule the world? Sinful arrogance? Pride is a sin according to the bible. Maybe they only care about OTHER people's "sins" and ignore their own.

But preaching and blathering about religion is really for the religion forum.

 

There is a vast difference between a special needs child and one which has anencephaly where there is very little brain or a "cotton wool baby" where the skin peels off with the slightest touch and the baby dies screaming. Late term pregnancies are almost invariably wanted pregnancies gone horribly wrong

 

It only has the potential to be human

Though to be honest I think a lot of people fit that category including some politicians

 

Hell the old testament god killed 99.99999999999 percent of the human race with the flood but for one family so to worship such a god would be similar on a smaller scale to Jews worshiping Hitler.

 

Yes, you have to be born to be a person.

1. That is God talking to one specific person. 2. not everyone believes in God.


BTW, murder is the ILLEGAL killing of a person by a person. Leaving aside the issue of personhood, if it's legal, it CANNOT be murder. Therefore, legal abortion is not murder. Even when it was illegal, it was never murder in the history of your country or mine.

 

only God decides who lives and dies... it's all part of God plan to have that abortion.... why would you question God's plan?

God must of known you would be here reading this post as he asked me to pass on this message too you ..... ain't God great

...

 

Instead of rehashing old debates I offer the following as to why abortion is not murder

http://www.politicalforum.com/abortion/363145-abortion-choice-consent.html
http://www.politicalforum.com/abortion/390819-choice-consent-cont.html

- - - Updated - - -

You do know that by far the videos and pictures of abortion on the internet are fake

 

My skin cells are human they are not a person, human is a far to broad term to use and in the way you are using it, it is an adjective i.e. describing something, in order for human to mean a person it would be a human (noun)

 

You seem to believe that the state is always right. If the majority in your state voted that it was in the interest of their (perhaps overpopulated state) to force abortions on women who already had more than two children would you agree that the state has the authority to override a woman's personal preference on the matter? Or would you only believe the state has that authority as long as they agree with your opinion on the matter??

 

You actually make the pro choice point, the woman had a choice, she decided to go through with the pregnancy even knowing the risks .... now how would you feel if she had been forced to abort against her will because forcing a woman to give birth is no different.

BTW if you are going to invoke God your first task is to prove God exists or did exist.

 

Firstly you would need to show that the woman was under duress due to her mental state

Secondly you did not use the human noun as it is always proceeded by another word to show it is a noun, you posted human on its own which means you were using it as an adjective.

Thirdly, children do not have the same rights as adults and no you do not have the obligation to protect them at all costs ... by the way an obligation is not always a legal requirement, furthermore your understanding of law is not very good, no person has more rights than another.

Fourthly, you are equating consenting to sex to be consenting to pregnancy which is incorrect.

 

Doesn't really support your position, if anything it points to the soul existing prior to the body and is waiting to be inserted. It offers no advice as to when personhood starts.