Slavery and liberals

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Josephwalker, Oct 23, 2020.

  1. Sirius Black

    Sirius Black Well-Known Member

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    First for you to be correct democrats would have to demand "business as usual with China." Can you give me an example of this demand?
    Secondly hypocrisy is not a standard that works well in an argument if you expect something from one side you should expect it from both sides.
    Thirdly for your thesis to be correct one must show that Democrats favor China and Republicans do not. That is false. Someone may disagree with the method (sanctions) without disagreeing with the goal.
    Fourthly you criticize those you call "Trump haters" what is the difference between the attitude of "Trump haters" and people such as yourself that seem to have distinct hatred for those not in the Trump camp?
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2020
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  2. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I guess so, you act like you did not know

    I am sure you wanted it to be a left hate fest, but not the way it turned out
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2020
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  3. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    you sure like using that insult a lot... overusing it
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2020
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  4. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    No, I understood those things. My point was that it lends an aire of credibility to your charges of hypocrisy-- i.e., shows that you, yourself, are not a hypocrite, just calling the kettle black, so to speak-- if you show that this is not merely a case of allegation for partisan purpose but, rather, a matter of principle, & that it's a principle worthy of others' consideration, by confirming the consistency in your own, American, perspective on these 2 diverse situations which, nevertheless, have a common linking factor.
     
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  5. Josephwalker

    Josephwalker Banned

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    Democrats are against Trump sanctions and oppose his every move to even the playing field of trade.
    Democrats also want the Paris accord which gives China ten years to do what the US must do immediately.
    You guys love to bash America for slavery in its past but consistently support policy that caters to the present day slave state China and that's just one of their numerous crimes.
    We could also talk about their extreme pollution and support of the worst regimes on earth.
    Then we could move on to political prisoners and then theft of our intellectual property.
    Sad part is democrats Trump hate is so strong they oppose every tough measures he takes against this regime and even derided his covid travel ban wuth them.
     
  6. Josephwalker

    Josephwalker Banned

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    To Trump it's about trade and American jobs. I'm merely pointing out how democrats should support all things anti China but don't if Trump proposes them.
     
  7. Josephwalker

    Josephwalker Banned

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    Trump haters is an insult? Your hate is so obvious I assumed you were proud of it.
     
  8. Josephwalker

    Josephwalker Banned

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    What you are sure of matters not to me.
     
  9. ECA

    ECA Well-Known Member

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    :applause::applause::applause:
    He seems to have a very bad habit of ignoring what people actually post and instead makes all sorts of wild incorrect assumptions.
     
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  10. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    I hope you won't mind if I limit my response to this much of your reply, w/o trying to go into your distinct, third contention that Joe Biden is a, "racist," with its unclear implications as to whether, if true, 1) that has anything to why people (specifically Democrats, in your response) support him, or 2) if Democrats (along with the many Independents, other 3rd-party affiliated voters, & Republicans who will be, & are currently, voting for Biden) are simply being misled by the, "DP's leadership."

    As to your 1st contention, I don't think that pointing out that the Democratic Party was the party of slavery is the same as condemning slavery-- & though I'm white, I think nearly all the black Americans you check with will confirm that. So, especially since this is not the first condemnation of Democrats that I've seen from this poster, his actually saying that he condemns slavery (which came into being, in the American colonies, long before the Democratic party even existed), would lessen the chances of readers getting the impression of insincerity in his charge, thinking that all it might be for the editorialist is a convenient weapon to be aimed at an established foe. Does this not seem reasonable to you? Or can you think of a good, unbigotted objection that the author of the OP might have to assuring that his view is made crystal clear, to avoid any misjudgements of his motives?

    With regard to the 2nd part of your reply which I emboldened, it seems a bit like you are implying that any person who calls himself a Democrat, no matter for how long that has been or what other affiliations they've had in their past, has to answer for the entire history of the party. Am I mistaking your intent? Since parties are composed of their members, & people have (& continue to) freely switch their party identifications, both in response to, & in presage of, changes in each party, over time, it seems impossible to connect a present-day Democrat-- or even Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, et al-- to policies of the Democratic party over a hundred years ago, at least the way you have done it in your reply.

    I understand that you contend there exists a long tradition of racism in the Democratic Party dating back to before the Civil War, that has persisted right up to the current day. But surely you can understand that no one can expect credence to be given to an accusation of such magnitude w/ just a wave of their hand; ample supporting documentation, none of which you supply, is requisite to such a contention being taken seriously.

    It should also be pointed out that the former Republican strongholds, in the North, at the time of the Civil War, have largely become the bulwarks of Democratic candidates, & the former Democratic strongholds in the South have turned Republican. To my mind, this suggests more that it has been the PARTIES THAT HAVE SWITCHED CAMPS, NOT THE PEOPLE in those parts of the country. But perhaps you will awaken me to a different conception of this, when you provide evidence to support the long enduring, specifically Democratic, racism you have alleged. I look forward to reading it.
     
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  11. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    You've made it very clear you wish to keep the focus of your thread exceedingly narrow: Democrats' hypocrisy, initially on slavery issues (& now on China matters), when Donald Trump is involved. I see two problems w/ that intention, as you are attempting to carry it out.

    First, merely saying that Democrats condemn American slavery, is not enough of a basis to make a case that, therefore, anything-- even as large, far-reaching, & complicated as trade relations between the U.S. & China-- should, if there is any taint of government involvement in slavery, be an issue in which Democratic opinion should be predictable & uniform, regardless of any other consequences of that stance. You would have to demonstrate a centrality of that issue to the Democratic Party on a host of issues, to prove that the Democratic position would be or, to be consistent, should be in favor of tariffs despite any other factors, & so, therefore there was hypocrisy, due specifically to Trump. This is especially true because 1) you didn't explain how tariffs would in any way impact the slave-labor problem you cite. I mean, if your premise is that Democrats would need to support anything against such a country, in order not to be hypocritical, one could make the case that Democrats must be in favor of WAR with CHINA. Though that's obviously a ridiculous contention, it is really hard to say, in anything but an arbitrary way, where the line should be, since you give no other examples. Also, in the one example you do give 2) one would like to believe that Republicans, also, condemn the practice of slavery in America, which was outlawed more than 150 years ago.

    The same thing can be said about your contention that, "Democrats support all things anti China..." If this is such a truism, why could you not give some examples of the anti-China legislation which Democrats have, previously, overwhelmingly supported?

    My second problem with your hyper-focus on the words hypocrisy & Democrats, is that this predisposes any response-- having no luck eliciting examples from you to prove this alleged tendency of Democrats against China, or even supporting Democrats' anti-slavery agenda, except for the very general idea of former U.S. slavery (which you refuse to take a position on, yourself, despite Lincoln having been a Republican)-- leaves the most likely counter argument to be to list Republican hypocrisies. So, because you won't look comprehensively, or at any further
    aspects of China policy, or of slavery issues (there is sexual slavery in numerous countries, including the U.S ), this, "narrow," argument is likely to bounce between a host of totally unrelated subjects, from China trade policy to the Merrick Garland/Amy Coney Barrett Supreme Court nominations, & beyond: hardly the way to come to any type of resolution, whatsoever.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2020
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  12. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    I wonder why you edited out the end of my post? ;-)

    "The DP should also be condemned as the party of sustained institutional systemic racism in America.
    Of course ordinary American Democrats are unaware of the details of their
    party's history and the persistence of racism within the DP's leadership, as demonstrated by the DNC's selection of the notorious corrupt racist, Joe Biden." Dd

    You do not have to look far to discover that Joe Biden was a leader of the most extreme racist faction within the very racist DP. Focus here:

    "In the most heated exchange of the first Democratic debates, Sen. Kamala Harris (D-CA) took Biden to task for his past opposition to busing as a way to desegregate public schools. As late as his 2007 autobiography, the former Delaware senator called busing desegregation programs a “liberal train wreck.” But numerous stories about Biden’s record on race have documented his opposition to the federal government’s racial integration efforts dating back to the 1970s and his fondness for Dixiecrat senators like James Eastland of Mississippi."
    ROLLING STONE, Joe Biden in 1987: ‘We (Delawareans) Were on the South’s Side in the Civil War’, On Thursday, another decades-old quote of Biden’s surfaced courtesy of the Trump campaign’s opposition research team, By ANDY KROLL & JAMIL SMITH, JULY 19, 2019.
    https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/joe-biden-delaware-civil-war-860886/
     
  13. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    LOL! As opposed to under Obama? ;-)
     
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  14. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    Support for China is ginned up in the West by the corrupt special interests that profit from the CCP/China trade.

    "The organs of members of marginalized groups detained in Chinese prison camps are being forcefully harvested — sometimes when patients are still alive, an international tribunal sitting in London has concluded.

    Some of the more than 1.5 million detainees in Chinese prison camps are being killed for their organs to serve a booming transplant trade that is worth some $1 billion a year, concluded the China Tribunal, an independent body tasked with investigating organ harvesting from prisoners of conscience in the authoritarian state."

    NBC NEWS, China forcefully harvests organs from detainees, tribunal concludes
    China's organ transplant trade is worth $1 billion a year, according to a tribunal. This story contains details some may find distressing., By Saphora Smith, June 18, 2019.
    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/...-organs-detainees-tribunal-concludes-n1018646
     
  15. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    I thought I explained that your allegation against Joe Biden was something that merited separate treatment, especially because I didn't think you'd made clear enough whether you thought that Democratic Primary voters-- because THEY are the ones who selected Joe Biden, not, "the DP's leadership"-- chose Biden because of his alleged racism, despite it, or in sheer ignorance of it (which I am guessing is your position, though you only said they were, "unaware of the details of their party's history," which is not at all the same thing). No point in my trying to answer a mistaken idea of your argument, right?;)

    As to the beginning of the part you emboldened, above, about the, "persistence," of racism in the DP's leadership, which I did include in my prior reply, let me just remind you I was awaiting some historical evidence from you to back up this bombshell of an accusation, which I assume you must have, in order to assert it.
     
  16. joesnagg

    joesnagg Well-Known Member

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    Are some of these people getting paid?
     
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  17. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    Most of the members of this forum were active well before this campaign.
    As a rule they are far better informed than the general public. You do not see many spam posts here, and one side cannot overwhelm the other.
    IOW, not a good place for paid trolls to have much of an impact.
     
  18. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    The DP nomination is rigged by the DP party bosses. Surely you know that? The DP primaries are a sham. Did they ever bother to count all the votes in Iowa?

    Joe Biden is not a "separate" issue. He is a documented racist - a fact that the other DP leaders are well aware of. The extreme systemic racism that has always been the hallmark of the DP. It's not subtle.

    "Any time you throw your weight behind a political party that controls two-thirds of the government, and that party can't keep the promise that it made to you during election-time, and you're dumb enough to walk around continuing to identify yourself with that party, you're not only a chump but you're a traitor to your race. [applause]

    What kind of alibi do come up with? They try and pass the buck to the Dixiecrats. Now, back during the days when you were blind, deaf and dumb, ignorant, politically immature, naturally you went along with that. But today, as your eyes come open, and you develop political maturity, you're able to see and think for yourself, and you can see that a Dixiecrat is nothing but a Democrat – in disguise. [applause]"
    ESSENCE, "The Ballot or the Bullet" Malcolm X (1925 - 1965), King Solomon Baptist Church, Detroit, Michigan - April 12, 1964.
    https://www.essence.com/news/malcolm-x-ballot-or-bullet-speech-50-years-later/

    Right now the DP has selected the leader of the final successful Dixiecrat push to maintain de-facto segregation in the DPs urban ghettoes.
     
  19. joesnagg

    joesnagg Well-Known Member

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    Glad to hear that, sometimes I've really wondered.
     
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  20. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    In a two party system during the last few weeks before an election common ground tends to sizzle away. ;-)
     
  21. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    Even if you are right-- and I am definitely NOT SAYING THAT YOU ARE-- you realize, I'm sure, that this is not commonly-believed to be the reality. While the majority-view of things, I'll be the first to contend, turns out to be incorrect w/ a fair degree of regularity, still, anyone trying to maintain some out-of-the-mainstream, different Truth, has the burden of Proof on them; certainly you know that?

    The three points in your original reply are all, "separate," insofar as that each lacked substantiating evidence, therefore any one could not be used to support or help, "prove," another, before it had 1st been accepted, itself, as true.

    Your first point is a perfect example of this. You'd posited that Josephwalker's denouncing the DP was the equivalent of denouncing slavery. On it's face, that is a false claim, until & unless you first prove that the Democratic Party IS considered synonymous w/ slavery, which patently is not the case. Note, that J.W.'s believing that is true (& good luck proving what anyone believes) would not even satisfy the idea that readers should realize that, in his DP condemnations, he is condemning slavery.

    Your 2nd main contention was that the DP leadership has been systemically racist for, I guess, it's entire history. I have treated that assertion already, in depth, in my posts #60 AND #65, if you'd care to refresh your memory, so I won't waste the space repeating it here. The abridged summation can be stated in 3 or 4 words: what's your evidence? (Note that it is a given that, since racism is and has been a fact of the American experience, it will naturally have been a staple of the politics of BOTH Parties, so that your claim would depend solely on racism manifest in DP leadership over & above the racism of RP leaders).

    And that proof must be more substantial than a 1964 speech by Malcolm X. Even if you were to take His Word as gospel-- and I'd have a hard time believing you did; even harder, that I should-- how could a speech from over 50 years ago be evidence of anything that occurred AFTERWARDS?

    This was even before Joe Biden got into politics, not to mention all the current DP leadership. In fact the beginning of your quotation of Malcolm X's words would seem to APPLY TO REPUBLICANS, not Democrats, over the past 4 years:

    So, your 1st two postulates remain unproven. That only leaves your contention regarding Biden, being presented, for all intents & purposes (as I'd said), as, "a separate issue."

    And, so far, all I recall seeing in the way of supporting facts, was a few pretty tame quotes from a Rolling Stone article. I hope you can do better than that. If that's your total case, it would suggest just the opposite.
     
  22. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    1. The DP rigs its primaries and its nomination process. That is no longer a secret.

    “Before I called Bernie Sanders, I lit a candle in my living room and put on some gospel music. I wanted to center myself for what I knew would be an emotional phone call. I had promised Bernie when I took the helm of the Democratic National Committee after the convention that I would get to the bottom of whether Hillary Clinton’s team had ***rigged*** the nomination process, as a cache of emails stolen by Russian hackers and posted online had suggested. I’d had my suspicions…”
    POLITICO, Inside Hillary Clinton’s Secret Takeover of the DNC, When I was asked to run the Democratic Party after the Russians hacked our emails, I stumbled onto a shocking truth about the Clinton campaign., By DONNA BRAZILE November 02, 2017. (*** mine)
    https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/02/clinton-brazile-hacks-2016-215774

    2. I am not "Josephwalker".

    3. The DNC's nomination of Joe Biden, a documented racist, demonstrates that the DP remains the party of systemic racism in the US.

    4. Malcom X's words apply directly to Joe Biden and so to the DP. The RP has always been essentially indifferent to rabid DP racism. Only Trump has stopped the destruction of black American neighborhoods in 2 DP run cities. He should have done more.

    “Both of them have sold us out, both parties have sold us out. Both parties are racist, and the Democratic Party is more racist than the Republican Party.”
    Malcom X, By Any Means Necessary, Malcom X, Betty Shabazz and Pathfinder Press, 1992, P 46.

    The nomination of Biden proves that the DP can never really change.
    Trump has proved that there is still a glimmer of hope for the RP. But the institutions of racism created by the DP will have to be eliminated for minorities to liberate themselves from the systemic racism that Joe Biden represents.
     
  23. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    Well you clearly feel strongly about those ideas, & I'm not trying to change your mind; I thought you were trying to change mine. But the only evidence I saw supporting your extreme views-- not meant as a criticism, just my appraisal of how they compare vs. the conventional interpretation-- was a link to an article about Hillary Clinton's collusion w/ the then head of the DNC, Wasserman-Schultz, which I AM already aware of (having been a Bernie Sanders supporter, though I'm typically registered as an Independent). But I don't personally think that proves that the same thing happened with Biden (though maybe proof will, at some point, come out that confirms your intuitive convictions), or that it has been happening all along. Until that time, in order to keep things between us cordial, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I hope you're not one of those who detests that expression.
    Have a pleasant rest of your evening.
    DEF.
     
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