Social Security/Medicare/Medicade

Discussion in 'Social Security' started by Ragnar, Feb 13, 2017.

  1. Ragnar

    Ragnar New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2017
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    hey everyone,
    joined this forum to kinda help acquire signatures for a petition I have written on Whitehouse.gov concerning Social Security-Medicare/Medicaid. Have yet to gather the 155 sigs required to publish the petition publicly. would sure like to do that as well as the 100k required for it to be considered by the WH.
    So, everyone take a look and respond accordingly.
    .[URL="https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/social-security-medicaremedicade-trusts.
     
  2. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Messages:
    20,449
    Likes Received:
    4,798
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The above is your petition text. Maybe the reason you aren't getting signatures is that you don't understand how the SSA and the Trust Funds work.

    Try this: https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/ProgData/fundFAQ.html

    No "money" divided up as you say. ALL proceeds/money/assets received by the SSA for S.S. goes into the Trust Fund daily. So how does "money" get from SS into the general fund? -this is how:

    It's the same as though you personally were to privately purchase a T-bill for your own portfolio. You hand money over to the Treasury and you get a T-bill in return to put in your safety deposit box in your bank, or in your drawer at home if you prefer. The money you handed over for the purchase goes into the general fund. Your investment is safe. You have the T-bill backed by the full taxing authority of the government. All well-informed people, agencies, advisors, and other professionals agree that Treasury securities are the safest investment in the world. And the Trust Fund holds Treasury securities.

    Any questions?

    Maybe you should save face by going out and deleting your misguided petition.
     
    Gorgeous George likes this.
  3. BleedingHeadKen

    BleedingHeadKen Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2008
    Messages:
    15,886
    Likes Received:
    906
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Question 1: are the T-bills that you buy from the Treasury the same type of T-Bills as the Social Security uses for it's "trust fund"?

    Question 2: Where does the money go when the T-Bills are purchased?

    Question 3: When the T-Bills are redeemed by Social Security, from where does the money come to pay the principle plus interest and how do they get that money?

    Question 4: Would you agree that a Trust Fund has 3 parties, which includes a Settlor, a Trustee, and a Beneficiary (or plural)? If it truly is a Trust Fund, as you refer to it, then who are these people and how do they objectively fit the criteria for those parties?
     
  4. BleedingHeadKen

    BleedingHeadKen Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2008
    Messages:
    15,886
    Likes Received:
    906
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That's a violation of the Constitution. Congress is not authorized to create special taxes that go to special funds. In 1939 they created the Old Age and Survivors’ Insurance Trust Fund, which effectively does what you call for. Revenues collected MUST go into the General Treasury. Per the 1939 laws (and some amendments since), the sum equivalent to the amount collected in payroll taxes for Social Security are credited to the Trust Fund in the form of non-marketable government treasury bonds.

    There is no "trust" because none of what you call the Trust Fund is anything like an actual trust. It's just entries on the Treasury ledger.
     
  5. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Messages:
    20,449
    Likes Received:
    4,798
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Of course not! The difference is that the TF Treasuries are not marketable so that no one can buy or "trade" them in order to prevent any corruption and shenanigans. It keeps them safely in the SS system.


    The same place it goes when you buy a T-bill or T-bond or Savings Bond.... -to the general fund. There is no other place for it to go.


    The Treasury sells a matching value of Treasury securities on the open market, mostly to foreign investors, and turns the proceeds over to the SSA and the matching Treasuries in the Trust Fund and then retired. So there is no change to the debt and no taxpayer funds are needed to redeem the TF Treasuries.


    The term "Trust Fund" is not "as I refer to it". It is the term/name given it by the government. I believe the Trustees are assigned by the SSA to handle the job, the "Beneficiaries" are retirees who are due a SS check. The SSA doesn't use the term "settlor" but I expect that would indicate the SSA.


    Now where are you going with this?
     
    Gorgeous George and Old Man Fred like this.
  6. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Messages:
    20,449
    Likes Received:
    4,798
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Sorta like your "money" in the bank is just entries on the bank ledger.
     
    Gorgeous George and Old Man Fred like this.
  7. BleedingHeadKen

    BleedingHeadKen Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2008
    Messages:
    15,886
    Likes Received:
    906
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The painfully obvious difference is that the entry in the bank represents a property interest in a portion of what the bank holds in assets. The Social Security Administration "trust" is ledgers entries for debt, not for any money that the Treasury actually holds. The SSA also is not a separate entity that has a property interest were it's funds held in cash. The "trust" can be revoked at any time. Congress doesn't even have to renege on it, it could just raid those entries and apply them elsewhere.
     
  8. BleedingHeadKen

    BleedingHeadKen Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2008
    Messages:
    15,886
    Likes Received:
    906
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Great, so if Congress refused to pay out on those treasuries, by, say, redeeming them for more treasuries, that would have no bearing on marketable treasuries.


    The same place it goes when you buy a T-bill or T-bond or Savings Bond.... -to the general fund. There is no other place for it to go.

    And who is ultimately responsible for paying the interest and principle on that debt? Would love to see evidence of this claim and why that would not compete with other deficit funding requirements.

    So those retirees have a property ownership in the trust? The SSA "trustees" don't have ownership of the trust, so they really aren't trustees in the correct use of the term.

    Of course not. The settlor puts his/her property into a trust.

    Oh just playing with your tendency to rely on propaganda and misdirection to make people feel comfortable with the shenanigans of their rulers. As long as it's programs that fit your agenda, of course.
     
  9. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Messages:
    20,449
    Likes Received:
    4,798
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    No, the laws that established SS do not allow Congress to "raid" the TF. And how would such a "raid" happen if the TF holds debt instruments owed to the TF. Would the "raid" entail confiscation of the Treasury securities and trashing them?

    See, it can't happen because the SS Act signed into law in 1935 was well written and prevents such things.
     
    Gorgeous George likes this.
  10. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Messages:
    20,449
    Likes Received:
    4,798
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    You fail.
     
    Gorgeous George likes this.
  11. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Messages:
    20,449
    Likes Received:
    4,798
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    After giving it some thought, there is some truth to what you said. It is true that I discussed how SS functions and what the T.F. is in order to advance my agenda, which is to do what little I may be able to do to protect and preserve SS by correcting common right wing distortions and outright lies about S.S.

    Your answer is to oppose the facts with standard right wing conspiracy theories and gross distortions in order to spread doubt and discouragement about a well designed and very functional system that has served millions for about 80 years.

    Congrats on being part of the problem.
     
    Gorgeous George and Derideo_Te like this.
  12. Ragnar

    Ragnar New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2017
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0


    you'all sound much more knowledgeable than I. So, that tells me that the (at last count) 28 Billion owed the trust is a result of, what, a defaulting gov't.!! If you can follow the money (our money) it looks like a Madoff inspired phenom. No, the trusts, whatever, need to be kept out of the hands of congress.
     
    Gorgeous George likes this.
  13. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Messages:
    20,449
    Likes Received:
    4,798
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    You're too focused on finding a conspiracy to learn about this. Payroll taxes came into the Trust Fund and the money was invested. Wouldn't you like it invested? How about the safest, most stable investment in the world?... Treasury securities!

    And it's not $28 billion. There is now $2.8 trillion in Treasuries in the Trust Fund and it is all fully paid for. It is safe and paid for just like if you were to invest in T-bills.

    End of story for now.
     
    Gorgeous George likes this.
  14. Gorgeous George

    Gorgeous George Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2019
    Messages:
    1,986
    Likes Received:
    824
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    We must trust the bean counters cuz they're professionals.:confuse:
     
  15. Old Man Fred

    Old Man Fred Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2017
    Messages:
    840
    Likes Received:
    253
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    The 14th Amendment makes it pretty clear that the President has the authority, and the obligation, to issue debt and approve spending, without the approval of Congress, to meet the Constitutionally mandated functions of the Federal government.

    It would literally be an act of treason for interest on the national debt, or the redemption of a bond, to not be paid.
     
    Gorgeous George likes this.
  16. Old Man Fred

    Old Man Fred Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2017
    Messages:
    840
    Likes Received:
    253
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    It's not a right wing distortion that government has "stolen" money from SS. It's primarily pushed by liberals.

    Social Security is most certainly not well designed and functional, as it's headed towards insolvency. The world has changed, and the system hasn't changed with it.
     
  17. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Messages:
    20,449
    Likes Received:
    4,798
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Well, I never claim government "stole" money from SS because it hasn't. And I believe it is well designed. It is not headed toward "insolvency". If Republicans refuse to adjust taxes and Democrats don't take over the Senate to do it, SS will reduce outlay and beneficiaries will receive less than they get prior to the cuts. And it will go on that way, paying out about 75% of what had been scheduled.
     
  18. Old Man Fred

    Old Man Fred Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2017
    Messages:
    840
    Likes Received:
    253
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    I was not insinuating that you ever made that claim, and completely agree that government never stole a dime from SS.

    The system is, however, fundamentally flawed, because as you mentioned, I, as a younger taxpayer, must pay more to ensure the benefits accrued by those much older than myself.
     
  19. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Messages:
    20,449
    Likes Received:
    4,798
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    It was intended to be a system that pays current obligations out of current revenue. So there is no flaw there.

    I didn't mean that you insinuated anything. You said liberals push the "stolen money" idea. I was just saying that as a lefty, I never made such a claim. Some may have. But I'm not aware of it.
     
    Gorgeous George likes this.
  20. Old Man Fred

    Old Man Fred Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2017
    Messages:
    840
    Likes Received:
    253
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    While the "stolen" claim is often made by everyone, it is most often made in relation to GWB "stealing" money to pay for the Iraq War "off the books", which is a particularly ridiculous claim that anyone of modest intelligence should understand is absolutely ridiculous, but is none the less widely circulated.

    Back to my actual point, times have changed, and the revenue mechanisms that fund SS have not, which combined with the incredibly slow and reluctant ability for government to reform anything has created a fundamental flaw that will doom the system.

    Privatization would completely eliminate any future threat to insolvency.
     
  21. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Messages:
    20,449
    Likes Received:
    4,798
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    That problem is characteristic of the Republicans. Democrats would correct the problem.

    Absolutely not! It would end up like healthcare: outrageously expensive, generating huge salaries and profits for a few, and distribute the benefits unfairly. EVERYONE to the left of the RNC would fight it fiercely!
     
    Gorgeous George likes this.
  22. Gorgeous George

    Gorgeous George Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2019
    Messages:
    1,986
    Likes Received:
    824
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    the world hasn't changed. It's still run by greedy crooks and liars.

    Your premise is totally partisan.
     
    Kode likes this.
  23. Gorgeous George

    Gorgeous George Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2019
    Messages:
    1,986
    Likes Received:
    824
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    lots of people who get ss still have to work to survive.
     
  24. Old Man Fred

    Old Man Fred Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2017
    Messages:
    840
    Likes Received:
    253
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    What corrections have they proposed? Eliminating the wage cap, which would not raise enough revenue to fully fund benefits? Increasing the FICA rate? Which would only further cripple young adults and kick the can down the road?

    How would privatizing Social Security generate huge salaries and profits for a few, and distribute benefits unfairly?

    The Federal government currently has a perfect model for SS privatization, fully administered by the Federal government, with the lowest expense ratios for mutual funds in the nation.

    If you genuinely care about wealth and income inequality, you support privatization because it will wipe out both within a generation, and in a round about way "raise taxes" on the wealthy and corporations by using exclusively corporate money to fund the majority of SSDI benefits in the nation.

    So you believe that funding entitlement programs via payroll taxes is a solid way to go?
     
  25. Old Man Fred

    Old Man Fred Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2017
    Messages:
    840
    Likes Received:
    253
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Social Security was intended to replace 40% of an individual's salary in retirement. It was never intended, nor advertised, as a sole source of income for the elderly.
     

Share This Page