Socialism 101

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Str8Edge, Jan 7, 2014.

  1. Str8Edge

    Str8Edge New Member

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    :roflol: Simplfied version but to it's true. Progressives will drone on ENDLESSLY about wages when the fact is they're unable or incapable of doing what those who make more than them do.

    They want CEO pay for flipping burgers.....
     
  2. mutmekep

    mutmekep New Member

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    Thank you for this gross display of ignorance and for parroting the same nonsense we have see in this forum again , again and yet again , it is always a pleasure to school you . Keep in mind that the central figure in socialism & communism of any kind is the worker and the relation between him and the product of his labor .

    Second you have to understand that socialism is a transition period from capitalism to communism .
    Socialism is the path not the destination and it's reign has to be short and swift (and definitely not last for over a couple of years at max)

    Actually the "get paid what you are worth" is a neoliberal idea.
    In socialism if you don't work you don't eat and you own the full value of your labor.
    None is demonized since none is buying or selling labor , you are free to get rich from your own work but not from exploiting the work of others (waged labor).

    No , the role of socialism is to reduce and at the end eliminate the state , production decisions are taken either by private ( cooperative) business or by communities through direct democratic procedures . Parliamentarism / centralized politics belong to the bourgeoisie not socialists.

    Socialism never failed because it was not really tried .

    You mean there is no economy because there are no stocks , bonds and waged labor?
    You fail there ...

    No incentive? actually there is extra incentive because the workers own their businesses and the better they do the more they get paid ... and i mean THEY get paid not the lazy capitalist .

    Once again there is no central/national/federal government at all and even if communities agree to have a central committee this organ has no legislative or executive powers at all but only supervising duties .

    Consumers dictate the pricing through their consumption , apart that there is no state there are also no trusts , no monopolies , no ECB/FED to create magic money , no stocks to be bought and sold . Taxes , tolls & services are all decided directly by the citizens and can change at any time if communities want so . There are no politicians , pressure groups, lobbyists , parties or waterproofed too big to fail / too big to jail organizations.



    Laughable .

    You are confusing democratic socialism with social democracy , a classic mistake .

    HoHoHo . you mean the negative taxed , subsidized , account hiding "producers" ?
    Welfare is a handout to the capitalists , the government is squeezing the middle class with taxes in order to keep the impoverished working class consuming . When the capitalists don't pay enough who will buy "their" products? welfare creates demand where there is none.

    Hey do you know how many patents and medicine your corporate farma has bought from state founding research centers around the world ? Also you may wanna get informed about the "concessions" Obama did with the big farma .
    They are fully state sponsored .

    Capitalism has no benefits for the masses , it is pure exploitation and robbery .

    Laughable

    All your assumptions are wrong and consequently so are your "conclusions" .
    A moral society pays those who work not those who own the means of production .
     
  3. Str8Edge

    Str8Edge New Member

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    Oh, you mean they're moving away from socialism as en economic system because it's such a FAILURE? :roflol:

    - - - Updated - - -

    Who leads the world in R&D? USA Why? Profit motive

    Anything else you need?
     
  4. Str8Edge

    Str8Edge New Member

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    :roflol: HOW do you "mix it up"? You either give the government the right to the means to produce or you don't. It comes down to private property. Does the government own your property or do YOU own your property?

    How do you give the government the right to own some industries and not others? Do you OUTLAW citizens from practicing the industries the government owns? Do you allow citizens to practice industry alongside the government with unlimited resources AKA printing press?
     
  5. Str8Edge

    Str8Edge New Member

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    :roflol:
     
  6. Str8Edge

    Str8Edge New Member

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    Here's a classic example of someone who doesn't understand what private investment does or why it's so vital to the economy. Likewise he probably has a 401K or IRA account filled with stocks and bonds. :roflol::roflol:

    - - - Updated - - -

    Because I read posts EVERY DAY from progressives that advocate for it's return. :roflol:
     
  7. BitterPill

    BitterPill New Member Past Donor

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    What about corporate welfare; Is that socialist?
     
  8. Str8Edge

    Str8Edge New Member

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    Most of that post is WAY off topic and basically filled with personal attacks. :roflol:

    If you want to discuss the ethics of socialism and welfare, feel free. What moral/ethical justification do you have for taking from one who earns and handing to another who didn't? You'll need to do better than "you're selfish!".
     
  9. Diuretic

    Diuretic Well-Known Member

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    The OP isn't so much a straw man as a whole population built from straw.

    It's hard to know where to start dismantling the post, it's so breathtakingly wrong.

    Yeah I know, I have to come up with some evidence.

    I shall, but it will take me a little while.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I'll start with the basics.

    Socialism is predicated on the social ownership of the means of production and distribution.

    Capitalism is predicated on the private ownership of the means of production and distribution.

    If we accept that then we can move on.
     
  10. Str8Edge

    Str8Edge New Member

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    You can throw out whatever's logical and reasonable.

    Sure, no problem here. Please continue.
     
  11. mutmekep

    mutmekep New Member

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    What social ownership means to you ?
     
  12. Str8Edge

    Str8Edge New Member

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    Well, if you believe in the premise of social welfare than you believe in the premise of corporate welfare. Unless you can somehow logically and rationally distinguish the two.

    Personally, I abhor the state using the threat of force/force to redistribute people's earnings.

    My moral argument against welfare is real simple. Using universal ethics, logic and reason, the only moral justification for force is self defense. You have no moral right to forcefully take from one who earns and hands to another. Now voluntary contributions, as in charity, are perfectly acceptable.
     
  13. Str8Edge

    Str8Edge New Member

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    Indeed laughable. I laughed long and hard over your ridiculous response.

    Yes.... We call them "paychecks" here in the U.S.
     
  14. mutmekep

    mutmekep New Member

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    No meaningful argument ? not a single input ?
    Expected .

    You should have named the thread : BS assumptions about things i don't know and can not argue about 101
     
  15. Str8Edge

    Str8Edge New Member

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    Did you tuck an argument in between all that baseless non-sensical rhetoric? Feel free to present one.....
     
  16. mutmekep

    mutmekep New Member

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    I just demolished your strawman argument and you have nothing to say about it .
    For those who didn't skip Marxism 101 class my post are not at all baseless . This is the thing with reflecting false propaganda , you will be left embarrassed and wrong every time you stumble upon someone with basic knowledge .
     
  17. Str8Edge

    Str8Edge New Member

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    So says the Greek that babbles about how socialism is short term while living in a country that's been socialist for decades. :roflol: Not only is Greece socialist!? But the government is getting LARGER and LARGER!!!! Well, at least until the bankers stop the money spigot you "socialists" rely on since you aren't creating enough wealth to feed yourselves with.....

    I FULLY understand the concept of a stateless society as I'm a staunch Libertarian. It's predicated on the premise that not everyone is created with equal industry...... Until you understand this simple premise and RESPECT what others create? Earn? Own? You have ZERO chance of being part of a voluntary society.

    A voluntary society is born of mutual respect, not government force.
     
  18. mutmekep

    mutmekep New Member

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    Greece socialist ? LOL again you don't know what you are talking about.
    How many socialist countries have their central bank owned by bank of England (over 70%) and 10% by the church?

    Since you are not adequately informed about the country i live i have no intentions to spank you with facts over capitalist monopolies , party funding or more . The concept of Eurosocialism in a clear and recently 100% neoliberal form of social democracy and it is based around the idea that if you inflate finance industry enough their scraps will be enough to build a social state .
    If you are interested in European politics and specifically socialist parties you can research the policies of those organizations around the continent but only to give you few examples :
    The Netherlands - socialist party in coalition government with right wing neoliberals
    Greece - socialist party in coalition government with right wing neoliberals
    Germany-socialist party in coalition government with right wing neoliberals
    Luxemburg-socialist party in coalition government with right wing neoliberals
    Slovenia-socialist party in coalition government with right wing neoliberals
    Italy -socialist party in coalition government with right wing neoliberals
    Austria-socialist party in coalition government with right wing neoliberals
    Belgium -socialist party in coalition government with right wing neoliberals
    Porgugal-socialist party in coalition government with right wing neoliberals
    Finland -socialist party in coalition government with right wing neoliberals
    Ireland-socialist party in coalition government with right wing neoliberals

    see a patern ?

    Where is Marxism disrespectful of what others create?
    Actually what this whole thing stands about is for those who work to own their labor , that's pretty much it .
    What you do with the money you earned through your own labor is nobody else business .

    I don't see where we disagree there .
     
  19. Str8Edge

    Str8Edge New Member

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    How many of you work for the government again? :roflol:

    Well, yes. We call them paychecks here in the U.S. You provide your labor voluntarily and your business compensates by paying you American currency.....


    The problem is some people do disagree. They think they're entitled to someone else's earnings, property, wealth which is why we instituted our government to begin with. To protect our life, liberty and property.... as opposed to handing it away....:cool:
     
  20. mutmekep

    mutmekep New Member

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    Around 700.000 including police and the army , out of ~4m workforce and this is ~20%
    In the UK public employees are 23 %

    Voluntarily? HAHAHA riight , voluntary exploitation is a perk only available in capitalism .

    Capitalists are entitled to someone else's labor , you got it wrong
    I know all about the social contract and that the sole purpose of the state is to protect capitalist's property claims.
     
  21. goober

    goober New Member

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    You left out sanctions and economic embargos....

    Assuming that you live in a free market that is optimal, then the distribution of wealth and spending cannot be improved by government intervention.
    If the distribution is not optimal, if you have a distorted market, then the government spending may mitigate some of the inefficiencies and increase the productivity of the society, and the general welfare.

    That's more a jingoistic slogan than a factual statement.
    Japan and China each currently produce more medical patents than the US, Europe taken as a whole produces more medical patents than the US.
    If you were going by actual data, rather than repeating slogans that you heard somewhere, more medical advances, per capita, have been coming from countries with some form of socialized medicine, than from the US for some time now.

    Of course that is your opinion, although the facts don't seem to support it

    Of course almost every time that congress has appropriated money for some purpose, people have spoken for and against it, and the vote is usually not unanimous. That "proves" that there are contending factions in congress.

    Lets look at a specific example and try to work out some of the details.
    Lets look at health care.
    There seems to be four general models used in the world.
    There is government provided health care, like Britains National Health or the US VA Medical system.
    There is privately provided single payer health care, like Canadian Medicare or US Medicare.
    There are the mandated systems, that include private providers and private payers.
    And there is the system we used to have in the US.

    All provide roughly equivalent outcomes.
    Government provided health care is significantly less expensive.
    Single payer costs more, but less that mandated systems.
    Mandated systems cost the most, except for the system we used to have in the US which was by far the costliest.

    So why you you pick the costliest system, which provided no better outcomes than the far less expensive systems?
     
  22. johnmayo

    johnmayo New Member Past Donor

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    Snark doesn't count as proof.


    Our for profit system has dominated medical innovation. Why don't you argue that your system encourages more innovation? Because the fact is I think even you realize price fixing causes shortages, in this case a shortage of new medicine because they wouldn't be paying enough to justify r and d.
     
  23. The Voluntaryist

    The Voluntaryist New Member

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    "voluntary exploitation"? I'm not exploited because I choose to work for a boss. I am compensated for my labor with what is called a paycheck. If I do not like the pay I am receiving I quit and go work somewhere else or pick another field entirely or even start my own business (though government regulations will make that near impossible). The only exploitation that goes on is when the taxman comes around and steals a third of it.

    Also, the institution of government itself is entirely anti-capitalist. The government no more protects businesses than it does the citizens of its nation. If you wish to stand against exploitation then resist the state, but not in some 1930's Spain style where the so-called anarchists took control and threatened death for anyone who used money. Last time I checked real anarchists oppose coercion, not voluntary action, no matter how much you personally view it as "exploitive".

    I'd like to know what example you have of a business without employees. Would it be a consumer paying every single roofer individually that fixed his roof? How would the pay be distributed without causing conflict? Based merely upon the consumer's observation's or by a contract agreed upon between the consumer and the roofers? Would that not make the roofers the employees of the consumer?

    It could be possible to pay individually, though I'd argue that a small roofing company that has employees would be greater in efficiency I couldn't see why both options couldn't work in a laissez-faire society if all consenting parties agree. If you feel as strongly as to call employment "slavery", I'd like to know how/why.

    I would define slavery as coercion. I'm not forced to work at my job, therefore I am not a slave. If you'd like to say "you are a slave because you must work" I would say that's because I'm renting the property of another individual. If you further call that slavery, I would say that even if I acquired my own land I'd still have to pay taxes to which I would call taxes the REAL slavery as everybody is FORCED to pay them. If I do not pay rent I'm thrown out. If I do not pay taxes I'm jailed, if I resist arrest I'll be beaten, and if I fight back I'll be killed.
     
  24. johnmayo

    johnmayo New Member Past Donor

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    Number of patents doesn't not equal amount of medical innovation. You name a big Chinese advancement and I will name a bigger one done by Americans and we keep going back and forth until you give up. Game? One rule though. No BS medicine. I don't want to hear about the hidden power of tiger penis or seahorse powder.
     
  25. Str8Edge

    Str8Edge New Member

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    Covered under ad infinitum.

    Doesn't address the point you quoted. Read the last sentence again.

    As if medical patents=R&D or quality..... . We spend more than any other nation in R&D.

    I notice you didn't bother posting these supposed facts.....

    Doesn't address the point you quoted. Congress debating does not equal moral.


    The only roughly equivalent outcome out of what you mentioned is they all provide some form of healthcare..... :roflol:

    Hey? You want to wait 3 months to see a specialist or a few months to get an MRI, save up some money and move to a "socialized" healthcare country.

    - - - Updated - - -

    :roflol:
     

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