Socialism 101

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Str8Edge, Jan 7, 2014.

  1. Burz

    Burz New Member

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    I am not opposed to capitalism for some thing; the Soviet Union was not good at producing consumer items, but it showed that government can be good at producing some things, such as heavy industry. On the cooperative side, Mondragon is good at producing any number of things.
     
  2. johnmayo

    johnmayo New Member Past Donor

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    Also misery. They produced a ton of misery everywhere the curtain fell.
     
  3. Burz

    Burz New Member

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    As far as an economicly blockaded system goes, Cuba has done quite well.

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    That was a product of the political system. Regarding the economy, it was headed by the political system. The Soviet Union thus does not condemn any attempt at statist economy, even if it's not the only form of socialism. A different political system or even different rulers would produce different results.
     
  4. Str8Edge

    Str8Edge New Member

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    Oh, that's not bad. You're only marginally socialist.


    If you feel you're being exploited, voluntarily leave and apply somewhere else. In America, you get paid based on supply and demand. Don't like it? Increase your employability by getting in demand job skills and/or education. That's the great thing about America. Plenty of opportunity for those that WANT it.



    What? Capitalism isn't entitled to anything unless you voluntarily agree to the terms...... You guys make it sound like there's some dude with a gun to your head when you VOLUNTARILY fill out an application. :roflol:
     
  5. Str8Edge

    Str8Edge New Member

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    Well, good's not good enough. Something that people tend to forget about a free market system and the competition it creates is that it gives you the most product for the least amount of resources.

    Virtually ALL the complaints about capitalism in the U.S. is simply dum dum Americans voting in politicians that allow mega-corporations to skirt the natural balance of the free market. Without government protectionism, these mega-corporations would eventually die slow deaths under the weight of their own inefficiency(or never get that large to begin with.....).
     
  6. Burz

    Burz New Member

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    This is just a myth. U.S. healthcare is very expensive. I am not explicitly opposed to free-market, but you also do not need a free market for competition, you can reward people for their work, give them higher specific salaries, etc, according to a system.
    You make it sound as though they could not form their own government. Indeed they have.
     
  7. goober

    goober New Member

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    So no facts, just slogans and repeated misperceptions.

    Just dismiss any data, and repeat your unsupported contention, OK, do you think that works?

    So you say "medical innovations" but the patent count doesn't support that contention, so you dismiss the patent count, and repeat your unsupported contention.

    By equivalent outcomes, I meant things like longevity, infant mortality, access to healthcare, things that can be measured, data.
    And the US is in the top 40 when it comes to outcomes, usually ranking in the high 30's.
    Now people like me, who have excellent health plans, get what is surely the equivalent of the best health care systems in the world.
    But there are americans who get their health care in animal stalls at county fair grounds, and there millions of Americans who go without health care, that's what brings it down.

    The US is the number one undisputed most expensive system in the world.

    It's going to take more than a generic anecdote to counter that....
     
  8. mutmekep

    mutmekep New Member

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    I find your ignorance and propaganda projecting highly amusing .

    Plenty of opportunity to work for others at a price others dictate ? no thanks you can keep the illusion of choice for yourself while i stick to pragmatism.
    Wage slavery will be considered an abomination in the very close future.

    We guys make it sound like it really is , yes in capitalism you are free to do as you are told , everyone praise freedom LOL

    By far the most important aspect of the economy is labor and the capitalists are keeping it enslaved , sad that you are a victim of propaganda but i can not help you there, you need to help yourself .


    LOL voluntarily subjugating yourself to the will of others ... LOL the land of the free
     
  9. undertheice

    undertheice Well-Known Member

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    how incredibly naive. the abuses and eventual fall of the soviet union were the inevitable outcome of placing too much power into the hands of the state. the coercive power of the private sector is the only means of balancing the violent powers of government. execution, imprisonment and confiscation, all forms of violence, are the tools by which the state enforces its will on the people. only by tightly controlling the purse strings does the private sector rein in the violent nature of government and avoid the abuse of its power. it is foolish to believe that the masses, that uncoordinated and largely ignorant mob, may control the state through the simple act of casting ballots. like any other entity, growth is the state's aim and only by starving it of funding can that growth and eventual over-growth be stemmed. allowing government control of industry, especially the heavy industry which produces the raw materials consumer goods are dependent on, upsets the balance and gives rise to the sort of top-heavy bureaucracies that encourage governmental abuse.
     
  10. banchie

    banchie New Member

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    Yes, I uderstand private investing, that is what banks are for. Stock holders do nothing and expect everything, the typical Moochers of society. 401K Probably not. Another capitalist ripoff for Moochers who do nothing and expect everything. Interesting that capitalists have these systems to take from the productive and give to the nonproductive, and then whine about a social program in place for the poor that they have created after the robbery.

    You already said that modern socialism is not the same ("I have a moral issue against modern socialism too." ), so once again, why are you discussing NK & Cuba if no one is advocating it? Want to discuss you grandma's skateboard while you are it? It is irrelevent.
     
  11. Burz

    Burz New Member

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    China has been statist for thousands of years, without much in the way of said abuses.
     
  12. Subdermal

    Subdermal Banned

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    That's cronyist - but if it is a regular occurrence, it drifts into Socialism. No, I do not wish to support corporate welfare as a general rule - but if it were sufficiently established that the size of the investment necessary to accomplish access to something which serves the infrastructure, I could understand it.

    It would be not a ton different than public investment in power lines, for instance.

    We pay road companies to build roads for us. The companies that build roads are private, though many States have Public Works. Is that Socialist? Do we really need to have a class on the distinction between a society which has created specific and limited enumerated powers for Government (socialist in nature), and a society which grants Government all power (Socialism or Communism, dependent upon degree of control)?

    I certainly hope not.

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    China had been Monarchist. Then it was Communist. Um...you cannot find anything in the history books about abuse in China?

    :disbelief:
     
  13. Burz

    Burz New Member

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    Every country has had it's abuses. China has also had rather stateless periods.
     
  14. Subdermal

    Subdermal Banned

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    I find your position so utterly devoid of any reality that you cannot possibly bring anything of value to any of us.
     
  15. mutmekep

    mutmekep New Member

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    I have no illusions that individuals who accept QE and exotic banking derivatives as reality will ever be able to land into pragmatism .

    Communists don't bring anything to anyone , we are showing a path that you can follow if so you wish and only when you are ready .
     
  16. Subdermal

    Subdermal Banned

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    A minute ago, you said that you couldn't find much in the way of abuses.

    Now you're backtracking and attempting to equivocate. Attempting to claim some sort of equality in abuse amongst countries is willful fiction.

    Do you know how many people have died in China at the hands of the Governnment? How many more were and are jailed for their beliefs?

    Do you even REMEMBER Tianenmen Square?
     
  17. Burz

    Burz New Member

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    Much is a word denoting quantity. Abuses exist everywhere.

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    That was during the "Communist" period.
     
  18. Subdermal

    Subdermal Banned

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    Conservatives want neither QE or the abuse that has taken place in the derivatives markets. These are products of a badly manipulated system, and those manipulations stem nearly exclusively from Government interference. Do you even know what derivatives are? In their initial form, they were nothing more than insurance certificates; they were a risk ameliorating strategy.

    There was nothing wrong with them; they were used properly and effectively for decades. When Government decided that the term 'too big to fail' was legitimate, it popped the cap on reason wrt derivatives, and absolutely skewed the risk tolerance of the market. One of the problems with the derivatives market is that so few clearinghouses were engaged in them that each one represented too large a segment of the total market, greatly inflating risk of economic collapse should any of them fail. See: Lehman Brothers.

    I disagree. Communists have been historically proven to bring death, and lots of it.

    There is nothing appealing about that path, and anyone with even a ruble's worth of knowledge of the history of that path sees it painted in blood.
     
  19. Subdermal

    Subdermal Banned

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    Yes, and failing to distinguish 'much' from one another is willful equivocation, usually engaged in to cover the ass of the greatest offender, by the sympathizer. Like you.

    So you admit you understand the history. That makes you a willful deceiver here. Millions DIED in China. That isn't the same as anywhere but a select few places, like Russia, Nazi Germany and Cambodia.
     
  20. johnmayo

    johnmayo New Member Past Donor

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    And those that don't wish to follow where you get your way...what happens to them? Forced conformity? Purges?

    Hey, get a chance to move to a commune yet? What is the hold up?
     
  21. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    funny i responded directly to elements with your OP. Or did you forget what you wrote?

    there isn't a single personal attack within my post. Unless of course you are so sensitive as to consider any criticism or derision of your poltical positions as personal attacks.

    I have found it is a common tactic to attempt to deflect a response when one's arguments are exposed for the weak gruel they are and one cannot adequately defend them.

    thanks for the response tho.
    I now know better than to waste my time engaging you.
     
  22. undertheice

    undertheice Well-Known Member

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    so which is it, thousands of statist years or stateless periods? make up your mind.

    as for the lack of abuses, i once again wonder just where you get your history from. from cruel emperors to homicidal party purges, china's governments have had more than their fair share of bloody periods. making excuses like "every country has had its abuses" is a poor way to slither out of your untenable position.
     
  23. Burz

    Burz New Member

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    During the "Communist" period. Other periods of Chinese statism are well thought of by the Chinese people.

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    A dynasty typically lasts around two, three or four hundred years before degenerating.
     
  24. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    Socialism has many options many European nations are Socialist with regulated but fairly strong business markets and you may criticize France but most French would not want an American "take care of yourselves its not our job" government system. Norway has arguably the highest standard of living on the planet and is Socialist.

    Even Russian Communism had strong points everyone had a home, job, education and access to doctors with the trade offs you didn't have some luxuries and softer freedoms were not as strong like Freedom of Speech.
     
  25. Burz

    Burz New Member

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    So does the United States, but it typically directs these outward.
     

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