Socialism 101

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Str8Edge, Jan 7, 2014.

  1. Str8Edge

    Str8Edge New Member

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    :roflol: Economically speaking, there's NO difference between the two i.e. command systems.

    You might have had a point politically but not economically.....
     
  2. johnmayo

    johnmayo New Member Past Donor

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    Let me guess, you have a pension but no idea how it is funded?
     
  3. banchie

    banchie New Member

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    WRONG. I may have to start a diary on how many times your assumptions are wrong. I was thinking, should it begin with WMDs in Iraq, Romney will win, and Benghazi will be Obama's undoing? Hmm, seems someone started a thread about these con assumptions and predictions the other day.
     
  4. Mjolnir

    Mjolnir New Member

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    How are wages economically irrelevant? Also, not all socialist formulations require command economies.
     
  5. johnmayo

    johnmayo New Member Past Donor

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    Quote me once saying any of those things please. Dodge on your pension.
     
  6. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    Socialism 101:

    Socialism starts with a Social Contract not a Capital Contract.
     
  7. Spiritus Libertatis

    Spiritus Libertatis New Member Past Donor

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    Problem is, unless everyone agrees on what that social contract is you'll have to start ordering people around. Which is what always happens.
     
  8. Diuretic

    Diuretic Well-Known Member

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    .


    I'm loathe to do so. Given the paucity of evidence or even argument, your post
    simply comes down to, "this is why I don't like socialism". Fine, you don't like
    socialism.


    But if you insist -






    Why should there be any confusion about this? It's quite straightforward. Of
    course socialism has both components, what economic and social system doesn't?


    It's too obvious to even remark upon.


    Socialism isn't founded on egalitarianism, politically or otherwise. It is focused
    on determining and meeting need, first a foremost, by the use of socially owned
    means of production and distribution. Not every citizen of the state has the same
    rights to goods. There are basic rights to goods, these are needs, but even then
    those who won't work will find their access to those basic goods are not
    unlimited.Socialism isn't about charity or enabling the lazy. That's common from
    those who either don't understand its basics or who want to misrepresent
    socialism.



    There is no requirement for the “equal distribution of economic goods.”You still
    need money to buy goods in socialist economies. Back in the early 1980s I visited
    the then communist states of Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Yugoslavia and I found
    money very helpful to buy goods, just like the locals. I've visited Cuba and
    found the same thing. Both me and the locals used money (albeit I used a
    currency specifically for foreigners that was in place to avoid the locals being
    gazumped when it came to purchasing consumer goods) to buy stuff. I had to have
    money when I needed medical treatment from a doctor (Cubans get it at no cost) in
    Cuba. But these policies have nothing to do with the “obvious shortcomings” of
    the economic system, they're simply how things work. I haven't been to North
    Korea and at this stage I'm not likely to do so. Well I might visit South Korea
    and have a look at Panmunjon but I suspect that's as far as I'll get.


    Socialism has failed in many societies for various reasons. The primary one
    is that it wasn't socialism at all but a form of state capitalism (USSR for
    example). On the political side of it one problem has been the tendency to
    totalitarianism by communist governments – the USSR and similar states in
    which I include the former DDR; the PRC, which despite it's apparent tryst with
    capitalism is still under the yolk of a totalitarian regime; North Korea
    (obviously) and so on. Where it worked well there was not so much a totalitarian
    government as a fairly benignly authoritarian one – Yugoslavia, Hungary are two
    good examples. Cuba has an authoritarian government but it has managed to
    reinvent itself in the realisation that the regime is not going to be toppled
    from outside and so it can ease off the restrictions a bit. The average Cuban I
    spoke to (or rather my wife spoke to as she is fluent in Spanish) was critical of
    the low level of consumer goods available but appreciative of free health care
    and education and certainly didn't want to return to the days of Batista. Nor did
    they want to change their form of government to a multi-party(or more
    accurately, duopoly) they see in the West. They just wanted more stuff. Given
    that Cuba has historically been an agricultural economy and agricultural
    economies are by definition more prone to poverty and a lower standard of
    material living than industrialised economies, this isn't surprising and has
    nothing to do with the fact that it has a communist government. Not sure if you
    realise it but Cuba's community party some years ago explicitly
    rejected Marxism-Leninism and removed it from the country's constitution.
    So,your contention that there is little or no private property in a socialist
    economy is wrong. There is plenty. It's just the means ofproduction and
    distribution are socially owned. Private enterprise is permitted, encouraged and
    strengthens a socialist economy, just aslong as the means of production don't
    fall into private hands.


    The assertion that there is no incentive to create or use ingenuity is also
    totally wrong. As a simple and obvious example look at theformer USSR. Does the
    word “Sputnik” ring a bell? How about the name Yuri Gagarin?


    There are inefficiencies in command economies, that isn't disputed. But these
    inefficiencies can be corrected and in fact have been corrected. The introduction
    of the theories underpinning market socialism have done this. It's still
    socialism, in the sense that the means of production are still socially owned,
    it's just that the methods of determining needs and wants at the consumer level
    are more effective. You may have to accept though that when it comes to
    being really effective at getting things done for the national wellbeing, such as
    in war-time, centralised planning along the lines of a command economy works
    extremely well. Take Britain for example. During the Great War round about 1916
    it nearly failed in its war effort because it tried to mix laissez-faire
    economics with the war effort. Just in time the government realised its
    terrible mistake and centralised all industrial production so that it could pull
    out of its slump and eventually succeed. At the beginning ofthe Second World
    War the British government didn't take the same economic path and immediately
    introduced central planning to ensure success.


    Following from this it must be obvious that the state in a socialist
    economy doesn't actually make decisions about consumer needs and wants
    in isolation from those very consumers. Go back to my point about
    market socialism.


    Now,do I need to go on or is that enough to be getting on with for the moment?
     
  9. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    Our supreme law of the land is a Social Contract not a Capital Contract.
     
  10. Spiritus Libertatis

    Spiritus Libertatis New Member Past Donor

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    Yup. And it seems that with the exception of anti-gun people and the US Government itself, Americans tend to agree to it. However, it's barebones basic stuff. Once you start getting in to specific aspects of life like socialists do, people agree less and less.
     
  11. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    Socialism requires social morals for free to function.
     
  12. Diuretic

    Diuretic Well-Known Member

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    True, socially owned should be locally owned - I think the example might be the
    collective approach in the former Yugoslavia. I'm not in favour of the
    monolithic approach of the former Soviet Union for example.


    The idea of exploitation of labour is, I think, that the capitalist doesn't pay
    the labourer fairly for work in that the capitalist seeks to pay x and then
    sell for y, the difference being profit. Again I realise I've over-simplified.
    In a socialist economy I think there still needs to be profit in the sense that
    price is greater than cost with the return being used for improving production
    rather than being siphoned off into the hands of shareholders.


    True that there is an innate tendency in humans to maintain the status quo,
    as in your example of Tito. I'm not sure of this on a theoretical basis
    but I think that may have been part of Trotsky's thinking about the
    continuing revolution. While capitalism exists anywhere there can be no
    advance towards pure communism. And if the push for revolutionary
    socialism is stalled by reactionaries then obviously that will halt the
    push towards pure communism.
     
  13. Ethereal

    Ethereal Well-Known Member

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    Right, because politicians are trustworthy and competent and should have an exclusive monopoly over every drop of oil in America. It's so obvious to me now... :smile:
     
  14. Ethereal

    Ethereal Well-Known Member

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    It's not a valid contract unless there is consent and shared meaning between the respective parties.
     
  15. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    I am just glad our Founding Fathers did such an excellent job at the Convention; and thought of every Thing:

     
  16. Ethereal

    Ethereal Well-Known Member

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    Without consent and shared meaning between parties, there can be no contract. Nothing you say will change that.
     
  17. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    Ratification accomplished that; only anarchists without a Cause claim otherwise.
     
  18. banchie

    banchie New Member

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    Oh, not what I am referring to here. But let me explain.

    Yes, I trust our elected officials more than I trust Corporate officials with my National Security. If they mess up there are 300+ million Americans to vote them out of office, not a handful of greedy boardmembers.

    The only drops of oil I exclusively want, are yours and mine, our National Oil that belongs to all US citizens on our National Federal lands. I have no desire to touch one drop of privately owned oil.

    So there you have what is obvious when I say National Oil,.....NOT privately owned oil.
     
  19. Natty Bumpo

    Natty Bumpo Well-Known Member

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    Regardless of airy-fairy ideological musings, the reality is that all the advanced, first-world nations have combined a socialistic component with capitalistic economies, achieving a decent quality of life for the vast majority of their citizens.

    Those who are indoctrinated into either extreme are destined to be frustrated, because pragmatism supports what demonstrably and repeatedly works best, a balanced approach to governance.

    Zealots for both doctrinaire socialism and unrestrained capitalism have no paradigms to offer. None has ever actually succeeded.




    .
     
  20. Burz

    Burz New Member

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    Modern commerce depends on legally enforceable trust; the wide extension of credit, impersonal management, and the pooling of service facilities. Refraining from interference is not enough; the government has to be the patron, judge, and policeman of the movement. China: A Macro History
     
  21. Str8Edge

    Str8Edge New Member

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    Wages have nothing to do with whether a system is socialist or not..... Yes, any socialist economy=command systems......
     
  22. Str8Edge

    Str8Edge New Member

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    Socialism has FAILED everywhere it's been tried.... It's WELL documented WHY it fails too. Take any economics 101 course to find out why......

    Do you know what pick a point means??????? :roflol: Let's debate it point by point.....
     
  23. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    Only truer forms of Socialism have failed, as have any truer forms of anarcho-capitalism.
     
  24. Mjolnir

    Mjolnir New Member

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    Under socialism, people are paid based on their contribution. Under communism, wealth is divided equally. See the difference? And no, socialism != command economy. For instance, the case in which private companies are owned by the employees - no government control needed.
     
  25. Str8Edge

    Str8Edge New Member

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    We call those employee owned businesses, not socialism. That's stretching the political definition into a small scale.

    Socialism/communism(command system) as economic systems, by definition, is when the government( or other entity) controls the means of production for a nation.

    You're attempting to tell me that government bureaucrats under communism get paid the same amount of "resources" as a janitor? :roflol:
     

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