Spain's fighting back against referendum as we speak.

Steady Pie · Oct 5, 2017

Zorro said: ↑

The right of people to self-determination is a cardinal principle in modern international law (commonly regarded as a jus cogens rule), binding, as such, on the United Nations as authoritative interpretation of the Charter's norms.[1][2] It states that a people, based on respect for the principle of equal rights and fair equality of opportunity, have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no interference.[3]

The concept was first expressed in the 1860s, and spread rapidly thereafter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination
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Unfortunately it's not something anyone gives a **** about.

Plus Ultra · Oct 7, 2017

Zorro said: ↑

The right of people to self-determination is a cardinal principle in modern international law (commonly regarded as a jus cogens rule), binding, as such, on the United Nations as authoritative interpretation of the Charter's norms.[1][2] It states that a people, based on respect for the principle of equal rights and fair equality of opportunity, have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no interference.[3]

The concept was first expressed in the 1860s, and spread rapidly thereafter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination
Click to expand...

This applies to non-self governing peoples, to colonies ruled from a distant metropolis. Catalonia has enjoyed a far higher level of self-government than even US States, they are just not allowed to deploy ambassadors to foreign governments, their own military or to print money. Catalonia has a legislature with 135 regional representatives which promulgate laws regulating education, health, culture, internal institutional and territorial organization, election and control of the regional executive, it's budget and other matters. They have their own police force and their own civil code.

Zorro · Oct 8, 2017

Spain's Rajoy Ready To Trigger "Nuclear Option" As Hundreds Of Thousands Protest Against Independence In Barcelona

Tens of thousands took to the streets of Barcelona on Sunday to express their opposition to any declaration of Catalan independence from Spain as Spain's PM Mariano Rajoy warned he is ready to trigger the so-called "nuclear option" - suspending Catalan autonomy using Article 155.

When totalitarians try to clamp down it only increases the eventual explosion.

Is Spain mounting the tiger?

Space_Time · Oct 9, 2017

Here's more:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/thousa...ce=cx_picks&cx_tag=video&cx_artPos=2#cxrecs_s
Thousands Rally in Barcelona Against Catalan Independence
High turnout represents rare show of strength for pro-union movement

Thousands of Protesters March in Barcelona
Thousands of people rallied on Sunday in central Barcelona to protest plans by Catalonia's regional government to secede from Spain. Photo: Getty Images
By Jeannette Neumann and Giovanni Legorano
Updated Oct. 8, 2017 9:16 a.m. ET
37 COMMENTS
BARCELONA—Hundreds of thousands of Spaniards gathered in Barcelona on Sunday to decry Catalonia’s secessionist push, a bid by pro-union groups to build momentum against a unilateral declaration of independence that could come as soon as this week.

The demonstration in central Barcelona, the capital of Spain’s Catalonia region, is a rare show of strength for the pro-union movement, whose gatherings have typically attracted several thousand protesters in recent years, compared with the hundreds of thousands routinely mobilized by pro-independence groups.

On Sunday, though, Barcelona’s streets were filled with an atypical sight: people waving red-and-yellow Spanish flags, unfurled alongside Catalan regional flags.

“For some time now, nationalism has been wreaking havoc in Catalonia and that’s why we’re here, to stop it,” Nobel Literature Prize laureate Mario Vargas Llosa told the 930,000 people gathered, according to organizers. Local police in Barcelona put that figure at closer to 350,000. Such discrepancies are common.

“We are fed up with this situation. We haven’t been out on the street until now, but this time around has been so surreal, so unfair, that we had to do something,” Juan Maldonado, a 52-year-old electrician from Barcelona said, as people chanted “here are the other Catalans.”

Polls by the region’s survey agency indicate that more than a third of Catalans support an independent Catalonia, although sentiment could have shifted following the Oct. 1 independence referendum, which was marred by clashes between police and voters and declared illegal by Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy.

Catalan President Carles Puigdemont is expected to address Catalonia’s regional parliament on Tuesday and could make a declaration of independence.

“We will prevent independence from materializing,” Mr. Rajoy said in an interview published Sunday by top Spanish daily El País. “I can say with absolute frankness that it won’t happen.” He said he didn’t rule out invoking constitutional powers that would allow him to seize control of the regional Catalan government.

Lawmakers who led Sunday’s demonstration were mainly from Mr. Rajoy’s center-right Popular Party and from centrist Ciudadanos.

Tens of thousands of people had also gathered across Spain on Saturday, many dressed in white, to call for talks between political leaders to resolve the country’s greatest political crisis in decades.
People stand behind a banner during a pro-union demonstration in Barcelona on Sunday. PHOTO: GONZALO FUENTES/REUTERS
The pro-union march on Sunday adds to building momentum against secession, putting additional pressure on moderate separatists to seek another route, such as pulling back and focusing on talks with the central government or calling new regional elections. Some lawmakers in Catalonia’s parliament, where separatists have a majority of seats, say new elections could increase their representation in the assembly and strengthen their hand in potential talks with Madrid.

Last week, several flagship Catalan companies, such as CaixaBank SA and Gas Natural SDG SA, said they were shifting their legal headquarters outside of Catalonia on fears of a declaration of independence. Investors had punished their share prices for being based in the restive region. Although the moves are largely symbolic, simply requiring more board meetings in the cities they choose to move to, the announcements still dealt a blow to moderate separatists who had promised supporters that such moves wouldn’t happen.
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Plus Ultra · Oct 9, 2017

Puigdemont originally said he would announce the results and declare independence today, Monday. There are divisions in the separatists, 16 thousand businesses registered with the Catalonian Chamber of Commerce are said to have officially ceased operations in the region, all Catalan banks have moved their headquarters out, so have the insurance and finance companies (business is very important in Catalonia).

Catalonia's top judicial official, meanwhile, ordered additional Spanish police protection for the headquarters of the regional judiciary.

The regional Mossos d'Esquadra police force, whose hierarchy reports to the Catalan government, had been in charge until now of guarding the palace in central Barcelona that hosts the judiciary.

But the High Judiciary in Catalonia says its president, Jesus Barrientos, has asked the chief of the National Police force in the region to join in the protection of the building. The statement says a declaration of independence, even if illegal under Spanish laws, could trigger the suspension of the judiciary and the ouster of its president.

Separatist leaders in Catalonia have declared valid a pro-independence victory in a disputed Oct. 1 referendum that Spain calls illegal. The vote took place amid police violence that injured hundreds.

On Sunday, a massive protest in Barcelona showed the strength of Spanish unionists in Catalonia, as thousands [some Spanish Media reported over 100,000 across Spain] marched with the Spanish national flag that had been absent until now in the regional debate. https://www.yahoo.com/news/spain-warns-act-catalonia-declares-independence-094936302.html
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Friends of mine in Barcelona have sent me videos of apartment blocks with Spanish and Catalan flags flying from different balconies, separatism is by no means the overwhelming sentiment in Catalonia. The claim 43% of the electorate participated and 90% of them voted for separatism is completely unverifiable, and while it is true the Spanish police prevented plenty of the balloting, the Generalitat had no electoral census or anyone verifying the identity of voters at polling stations.

Plus Ultra · Oct 10, 2017

Separatists highly disappointed with Puigdemont's waffling, I guess they should try negotiating instead of unilateralism.

Space_Time · Oct 10, 2017

Here's more:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41574172

Catalonia independence declaration signed and suspended
5 hours ago
From the section Europe

Media captionCatalan leader seeks talks to secure independence
Catalan President Carles Puigdemont and other regional leaders have signed a declaration of independence from Spain, following the disputed referendum.
However, they say the move will not be implemented for several weeks to allow talks with the government in Madrid.
The document calls for Catalonia to be recognised as an "independent and sovereign state".
The move was immediately dismissed by the Spanish central government in Madrid.
A 1 October referendum in the north-eastern province - which Catalan leaders say resulted in a Yes vote for independence - was declared invalid by Spain's Constitutional Court.
Earlier on Tuesday, Mr Puigdemont told the Catalan parliament in Barcelona that the region had won the right to be independent as a result of the vote.
The referendum resulted in almost 90% of voters backing independence, Catalan officials say. But anti-independence voters largely boycotted the ballot - which had a reported turnout of 43% - and there were several reports of irregularities.
National police were involved in violent scenes as they manhandled voters while implementing the legal ruling banning the referendum.
People attend a pro-independence rally near the Catalan regional parliament in Barcelona, Spain October 10, 2017Image copyrightREUTERS
Image caption
A pro-independence rally was held near the Catalan regional parliament in Barcelona
The declaration reads: "We call on all states and international organisations to recognise the Catalan republic as an independent and sovereign state.

Media captionPablo Insa Iglesias and Elisabeth Besó sit on opposite sides of the argument
Mr Puigdemont told the regional parliament that the "people's will" was to break away from Madrid, but he also said he wanted to "de-escalate" the tension around the issue.
"We are all part of the same community and we need to go forward together. The only way forward is democracy and peace," he told deputies.
But he also said Catalonia was being denied the right to self-determination, and paying too much in taxes to the central government in Madrid.
Reality Check: Would Catalonia be a viable country?
SCatalan crisis: Six things you need to know
Spain's Deputy Prime Minister Soraya Saenz de Santamaria responded to Tuesday's developments by saying: "Neither Mr Puigdemont nor anybody else can claim... to impose mediation.
"Any dialogue between democrats has to take place within the law."
She added: "After having come so far, and taken Catalonia to the greatest level of tension in its history, President Puigdemont has now subjected his autonomous region to its greatest level of uncertainty.
"The speech the president... gave today is that of a person who does not know where he is, where he's going, nor who he wants to go there with."
Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy has called an extraordinary cabinet meeting for Wednesday morning to address the latest moves in the crisis.
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Mr_Truth · Oct 11, 2017

Zorro said: ↑
"This Is Fascism": Shocking Footage Of Spanish Police Firing Rubber Bullets, Brutally Beating Peaceful Voters

"Sorry but this looks like fascism. I'm shocked and disgusted by how Spain has dealt with the Catalan Referendum. If there isn't a violent response to this, I'll be shocked."
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It is fascism - just as it is when government does that to the people as in Kent State or Ferguson. If the fascists in Madrid will not negotiate, then Catalonians should arm themselves and seal the borders from any foreign intrusion.

Space_Time · Oct 12, 2017

Here's more:

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...a-deadline-retract-independence-claim-or-else

Spain Gives Catalonia A Deadline: Retract Independence Claim Or Else
October 11, 20175:25 PM ET
Camila Domonoske square 2017
CAMILA DOMONOSKE
Twitter

Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy speaks at the Spanish parliament in Madrid on Wednesday. Rajoy has asked Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont to confirm whether he has declared independence.
Pablo Blazquez Dominguez/Getty Images
The prime minister of Spain has two requests for the leader of Catalonia.

First: Clarify whether the region is, indeed, declaring independence from Spain. And second: If that is the case, take it back.

Otherwise, Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy says, Spain will suspend Catalonia's current autonomy, institute direct rule and possibly even jail the Catalan president.

Spanish Premier Issues New Warning Against Catalan Separatists
THE TWO-WAY
Spanish Premier Issues New Warning Against Catalan Separatists
The ultimatum comes with a deadline: Catalonia has five days for the first demand, and three additional days for the second, Reuters reports.

The semi-autonomous region of Catalonia, which has its own language and culture, held a referendum on independence on Oct. 1. The Spanish government regarded the vote as illegal and attempted to prevent it with a violent police crackdown.

THE TWO-WAY
'Illegal' Independence Referendum Turns Violent As Police And Pro-Separatists Clash
Leaders of Catalonia say the referendum results were 90 percent in favor of secession, but with a turnout of about half of registered voters. Massive street protests in favor of unity came a week after the vote. Nevertheless, on Tuesday, Catalan President Carles Puigdemont gave a carefully worded speech in which he said that he had the "mandate" to declare independence but that he wanted to delay any repercussions to allow time for talks with Madrid.

It was a very intentional middle ground — not quite a declaration of independence, but something very close.

Catalan President Says He Has 'Mandate' For Independence, Calls For Talks With Madrid
For some of his supporters, it was close enough to count. Others in Catalonia, both for and against independence, are not so sure.

Lauren Frayer, reporting for NPR from Barcelona, spoke to graduate student Eugenio Juliá, who "is paying close attention because he's worried the terms of his grad school scholarship might change if Catalonia leaves Spain and the European Union," Frayer says. "He was frustrated with what he heard last night."

"It was not very straightforward. He's just walking in circles," Juliá told Frayer. "He was very ambiguous. I didn't know what he was saying."

In Spain, Catalans Are Divided Over Independence Vote As Referendum Approaches
Rajoy doesn't know, either. He calls Puigdemont's speech "confusing" and says it's time for the Catalan government to say — in a simple yes or no — whether it is declaring independence or not.

If it is, he says he will invoke Article 155, a never-used clause of the Spanish Constitution that will allow him to suspend Catalonia's autonomous government and institute direct rule by Spain.

"Puigdemont himself could face charges of rebellion," Frayer explains. "The Catalan separatist leader was very clear about asking for dialogue. But Rajoy told parliament today he will not negotiate the breakup of Spain."

For Catalonia's Separatists, Language Is The Key To Identity
Catalonia is relatively wealthy and the loss of the region would be a blow to the Spanish economy.

Rajoy gave Puigdemont until Monday to clarify whether the declaration of independence is real — and, if it is, until Oct. 19, eight days from now, to either back down or be deposed.

Pre-revolutionary Russia was already a huge menacing power in the eyes of Western Europe, and Germany in particular. Why indeed did Germany help send Lenin back to Russia? Could the inevitable tensions between the massive Russia and the rest of Europe have been restrained and ordered in the post-World War II era within a different common institutional and normative framework? No easy task. One cannot be sure.

Yet still, Russia might have simply remained the largest European state, with a deep and trusting relationship with the gradually integrating and even larger European Union. Maybe the time for that will yet come. Many things can happen in a single lifetime.

But for now, Russia casts itself into the role of the ‘other’, celebrating its ‘victories’ in Crimea, Donbass and Aleppo, which makes normal political dialogue with Europeans virtually impossible these days. Except for the minority of Europeans who turn the question around, and say that the problem is that official Europe does not ‘understand’ Russia, which makes some conversations between Europeans also impossible.
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waltky · Oct 20, 2017

Spain to suspend Catalonia’s autonomy...

Spain to suspend Catalonia’s autonomy, impose direct rule
19 Oct.`17 - With the Catalan president, Carles Puigdemont refusing to abandon the push for independence that has triggered Spain’s biggest political crisis in 40 years, Spain has decided to impose direct rule. On Thursday, the government in Madrid decided to press ahead with suspending autonomy on Saturday and imposing direct rule.

The unprecedented measure was announced after the Catalan leader threatened a unilateral declaration of independence if the Spanish government did not agree to talks on the issue. The Spanish government issued a statement on Thursday morning saying Puigdemont had ignored its calls to drop his independence plans and had once again failed to confirm whether independence had actually been declared. It said as a result of the decisions made by Puigdemont, the government would invoke article 155 of the Spanish constitution to begin the process of suspending the region’s self-rule. It said in the statement, “At an emergency meeting on Saturday, the cabinet will approve measures to be put before the Senate to protect the general interest of Spaniards, including the citizens of Catalonia, and to restore constitutional order in the autonomous community.” Further, Madrid criticised the Catalan government for “deliberately and systematically seeking institutional confrontation, despite the serious damage it is causing to coexistence and Catalonia’s economy.”

Puigdemont wrote a letter to the Spanish prime minister, Mariano Rajoy earlier on Thursday, which was the deadline set by Madrid for the region to abandon its independence plans, in which the leader wrote that discussions were the only way to resolve the crisis. Puigdemont has accused Spanish authorities of seeking to repress the independence movement after a national court judge denied two of its leaders bail this week. It said that using article 155 would force his hand. Puigdemont, who signed a declaration of independence on October 10, has proposed that its effects be suspended for two months while both sides open dialogue aimed at ending the standoff.

He wrote in the letter, “The suspension [of the independence declaration] is still in place. The [Spanish] state is entitled to decide to apply article 155 if it secures the Senate's approval. But despite all our efforts and our desire for dialogue, the fact that the only reply we have been given is that autonomy will be suspended suggests that you do not understand the problem and do not wish to talk. If the [Spanish] government persists in hindering dialogue and continues with its repression, the Catalan parliament could, if it deems appropriate, proceed to vote on the formal declaration of independence, which it did not do on 10 October.” While Puigdemont had argued that the unilateral independence referendum held on October 1, in which 90 percent of participants opted for independence, has given his government the mandate to forge a sovereign state.

According to Catalan government figures, however, the turnout was only around 43 percent. So far, Senior European officials have insisted that the secession issue is an internal matter for Spain. Addressing the European Union summit in Brussels on Thursday, the French president, Emmanuel Macron, said the event would be “marked by a message of unity around member states amid the crises they could face; unity around Spain.” Meanwhile, the German chancellor, Angela Merkel has backed the Spanish government’s position, and said, “We hope there are solutions found on the basis of the Spanish constitution.” The article 155, which has never been used before, will mean that the Spanish government will need to lodge a formal complaint with Puigdemont, then submit its proposals to the Senate for debate and approval.

Earlier this week, a Spanish government spokesman said that article 155 had been designed not to remove Catalonia’s autonomy, but to ensure its autonomous government adhered to the law. He explained, “We have envisaged a range of scenarios and will apply 155 accordingly. It’s not a question of applying it in its entirety or of taking over every government function or department. Clearly, the Catalan government would lose many of its powers, though not all. It’s a case of using a scalpel, not an axe.” If the Catalan government were to call a snap regional election without confirming independence, the application of article 155 could still be avoided in theory. On Wednesday, the Catalan foreign minister, Raül Romeva, said, “Elections from our perspective are not an option.” Meanwhile, in a last-minute call on Wednesday, Rajoy called for Puigdemont to calm the situation and act in the interests of all Spaniards and Catalans.

http://www.bignewsnetwork.com/news/255089722/spain-to-suspend-catalonias-autonomy-impose-direct-rule
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Space_Time · Oct 23, 2017

Here's more:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/crisis...eize-control-of-catalan-government-1508705229

WORLD EUROPE
Crisis Deepens as Madrid Moves to Seize Control of Catalan Government
Spanish leader Rajoy invokes constitution to take broad action against the separatist movement
Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy has sought expanded powers under the national constitution to crack down on the separatist movement in Catalonia. PHOTO: JUAN CARLOS HIDALGO/PRESS POOL
By Jeannette Neumann and Giovanni Legorano
Updated Oct. 22, 2017 4:55 p.m. ET
9 COMMENTS
BARCELONA—The Spanish government and separatists prepared Sunday for a critical week in Catalonia’s crisis after Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy sought new powers to remove the region’s secessionist leaders.

Spain’s foreign minister Sunday tried to clamp down on some criticism from opposition lawmakers that the central government in Madrid was responding too forcefully to halt Catalan authorities’ defiant drive for independence.

“All the government is trying to do, and reluctantly, is to reinstate the legal order, to restore the constitution but also the Catalan rules and proceed from there,” Foreign Minister Alfonso Dastis told BBC TV.

Meanwhile, leaders in Catalonia’s regional parliament, where separatist lawmakers hold a majority, convened a meeting Monday to decide when to hold a parliamentary session, likely this week. Some lawmakers are pressuring Carles Puigdemont, the president of Catalonia and leader of the secessionist movement, to formally declare independence from Spain this week. “It will be a week of decisions,” Catalan government spokesman Jordi Turull said Sunday. “Not doing anything is not an option.”

Mr. Rajoy asked lawmakers Saturday to grant him unprecedented power to remove the leaders of Catalonia and temporarily control the region from Madrid. Mr. Rajoy said Spain’s central government ministries would administer the region’s agencies until new elections are called.

The prime minister will seek to convene regional elections within six months to bring in new leadership and put an end to Catalan leaders’ repeated defiance of the central government. The prime minister’s expanded powers would focus on oversight of security, public order and financial management, the central government said. The powers would also seek to restrict Catalan lawmakers’ ability to approve some laws. During the past two months, separatist regional lawmakers approved an unauthorized vote on secession and later signed an independence declaration.

The region enjoys significant autonomy. Catalan officials oversee the region’s own police force and health and education systems.

In a news conference Saturday, Mr. Rajoy demurred when asked how the central government would ensure that Mr. Puigdemont and his 13 cabinet members would obey the order.

Catalan regional president Carles Puigdemont, in center in dark jacket and eyeglasses, says the central Spanish government “wants to appoint a board to control the life of Catalonia remotely from Madrid.” PHOTO: PAU BARRENA/AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE/GETTY IMAGES
“The Catalan institutions and the people of Catalonia can’t accept this attack,” Mr. Puigdemont replied later Saturday. “The government of Mariano Rajoy wants to appoint a board to control the life of Catalonia remotely from Madrid.”

The measures Mr. Rajoy announced were hammered out in recent days with leaders from two of the main oppositions parties, said the premier, a sign of the widespread political support for his bid to halt the Catalan independence drive. Spain’s Senate, where Mr. Rajoy’s center-right Popular Party has a majority, is likely to approve the measures in a vote on Friday.

The prime minister is invoking a passage from Spain’s constitution that hasn’t been used since the document was approved by Spaniards in 1978, during the country’s transition to democracy after the death of longtime dictator Francisco Franco. Invoking the powers of Article 155, Mr. Rajoy said Saturday, was a last resort.

“We are applying this article because no government, I insist, no government in any democratic country can accept that the law is ignored, that the law is violated,” Mr. Rajoy said.

Many Spaniards have watched bewildered as authorities in Catalonia, one of the country’s wealthiest regions, have pressed ahead in their bid to secede.

Mr. Rajoy said he was obliged to invoke the untested powers of Article 155 after Mr. Puigdemont and other officials in the region staged the unauthorized referendum on independence on Oct. 1, in which they said a majority of the two million people who turned out voted in favor of secession. The vote was marred by clashes between police and voters and irregularities, such as the absence of an official census.

Mr. Puigdemont has said the results of the vote bound him to declare independence from Spain, which he did on Oct. 10, only to suspend that proclamation moments later. He called for dialogue with the central government, despite Mr. Rajoy’s refusal to negotiate the secession of Catalonia.

Write to Jeannette Neumann at jeannette.neumann@wsj.com and Giovanni Legorano at giovanni.legorano@wsj.com

Appeared in the October 23, 2017, print edition as 'Madrid Moves To Curb Catalan Government.'
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