Suddenly, Iran is aflame with protest

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by Thedimon, Nov 19, 2019.

Tags:
  1. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2009
    Messages:
    5,805
    Likes Received:
    1,678
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Brutal suppression, mass slaughter, torture, imprisonment, all because human beings want the right to live free, productive, and prosperous. And where is the great American intellectual, Donald Trump? Silent. Not a peep from the perp who blasted Obama for saying nothing the last time Iran practiced its ruthless brutal oppression and slaughter. He’s too busy having a pissing contest with another populous idiot, Macron.

    If the fate of Man, of liberty, of peace, of prosperity depends on the intellectual prowess and the honorable character of “The Don”, humanity is fkd, big time.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019
    Margot2 and Ddyad like this.
  2. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2015
    Messages:
    6,504
    Likes Received:
    1,646
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The propaganda regarding the protests in Iran so ludicrous, they are funny! While Iran did experience sporadic protests and a serious security challenge in certain places where the protests were used by terrorist elements and saboteurs with foreign links to carry out their misdeeds, Iran was well prepared to take care of this latest challenge and despite the huge challenges involved, restored order in a relatively short period of time with minimal loss of life (except in certain provinces and areas where the battle involved armed groups as well). The intense propaganda, of course, persists and were efforts to push Trump (who was told properly by US intelligence that these protests were put down and handled rather quickly and efficiently) to jump on the bandwagon of those who were trying to use these protests to pressure Iran. But the reality is that things are largely (not entirely, as certain border regions do show increased security measures) back to normal. People are back doing what they normally would do and large crowds are again attending various sports matches, concerts and other social events. For instance, below is a clip of highlights of the most important game last week between the current league leaders (Sepahan Isfahan) and the runner up team in Iran's professional football league, Esteghlal Tehran, which was held in Isfahan with 40,000+ fans in attendance. And no problems of any nature whatsoever.


    Besides that, a recent visit to Iran by Business Insider's correspondent of Iranian heritage, which was the feature of an article with pictures published today from her visit in August, showed that despite the efforts to characterize Iranian society as somehow being on its heels, life is pretty normal in Iran. With people doing normal things. While the war being waged against Iran is ongoing, and will involve many other episodes, this round was navigated successfully by Iran and those behind these 'protests' and the sabotage and terrorism are once against left to simply make ridiculous noises in the media outlets they control.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/iran-photos-everyday-life-food-shopping-music-sanctions-2019-8?IR=T
    These photos show what it's really like in Iran, where — despite its antagonistic relationship with the US— life is surprisingly normal
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019
  3. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2017
    Messages:
    44,677
    Likes Received:
    12,448
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The West outlasted the Soviet Union.
     
  4. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2017
    Messages:
    44,677
    Likes Received:
    12,448
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Perhaps. Let me put things another way. If the Iranian people decide they want to end religious oversight of their government, how can that be achieved peacefully?
    The question for many nonbelievers in societies with government strongly impacted by religion is how much religion influences government decisions, especially in regard to personal liberties.
    I compared Shia Islam in Iran to Wahabbism because the latter is extremely rigid and seemingly incompatible with a peaceful transition to another form of governance.
    We should bring our understandings of truth to the political process instead of using government to divine truth.
    Why not simply deal with the notion on its face and ignore the origin?
    The battle over what exactly? What will Iran present as an alternative other countries might embrace?
    Uh huh. :yawn: :yawn: :yawn:
     
    Ddyad likes this.
  5. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2017
    Messages:
    44,677
    Likes Received:
    12,448
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Okay, if prosecution under appropriate laws isn't arbitrary or corrupt. For example, contact with foreigners is not in and of itself a crime.
    All countries, including this one, have rarely enforced moral laws on the books.
    Many countries, anyway.
     
  6. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2015
    Messages:
    6,504
    Likes Received:
    1,646
    Trophy Points:
    113
    My jaw dropped reading this!! My thanks to any higher being that might or might not exist (who even if it exists, wouldn't likely be interested or aware of my thanks:), but still my thanks: despite the threats Iran faces, the US has not managed to make Iran anything like it likes to pretend it is. Thank God on this issue Iran is actually more open that even America.

    Just search under 'travel to Iran' on google! You will see how anyone who has visited the country (and this is as close to a unanimous judgment from people of all stripes visiting Iran, whether pro Israeli or secular liberal etc) will tell you this: Iranians are the most hospitable people in the world and when they meet foreigners, they are extremely welcoming: they welcome even into their homes for tea, for dinner etc. No issue with innocent 'contacts' with foreigners for Iranians whatsoever.

    Simple contact with foreigners is definitely no crime in Iran!!! And the Iranian people know this. They practice that every day, where despite US sanctions and many other efforts, Iran does still get hundreds of thousands of visitors from Western countries and millions from elsewhere each year. Indeed, even working with foreigners or trading with them, is no crime in Iran necessarily -- even if it is a crime in many counties which follow America's lead or enforce American sanctions on Iran to work with Iranians!

    Based on US standards, Iran is actually way too lax and too open when it comes to contacts and potential connections between its people and the "terrorist organizations" (the collection of foreign intelligence services including those from Israel, US, Saudi Arabia and several European countries) which have actual, running, programs to hurt Iran. As a lawyer, I know the laws on both sides and I have no doubt about this. This despite the fact that Iran has none of the overt and covert programs to interfere in America or try to hurt it in American soil. The US has many such programs are embedded into American law!

    On the latter, let me give you a simple synopsis of them, starting with America's sanctions against Iran and then public and overt programs to bride Iranians to work against their government:

    Primary US sanctions against Iran prohibit any "US person or entity" from engaging in any trade in any service or any goods or technology with anyone residing in Iran (including moms and pops!) These remained completely in force even after the JCPOA. Secondary US sanctions (which were lifted as part of the JPCPOA and now reimposed) seek to tell other nations and their nationals not to allow their financial institutions to be used by Iranians (not government merely) residing in Iran, as well as to prohibit them any trade with Iranians (not just government) covering a host of entities (which literally translate to any trade with Iran as those hundreds of entities basically are the entire edifice of Iran's economy and society) and a host of key industries (all the major ones).

    Besides these sanctions, the US has a public, overt, program that offers anyone in Iran up to $15 million dollars if they agree to work with the US and provide helpful to the US in its efforts to wage its economic and political warfare against Iran. You can read about this US 'rewards for justice' program HERE. Imagine if Iran offered $15 million openly and publicly to any American who had information about the US military or which worked in sensitive economic industries to pass information to Iran! You think the US wouldn't look very suspiciously on 'contacts' between any American and any Iranian in that case? (Iran is ridiculously naive and, frankly, corrupt in looking the other way on what is going on in the country).

    Read the story about the 'devastating' Stuxnet computer virus that was unleashed against Iran by a joint intelligence operation involving numerous countries, led by the US and Israel but also intelligence services of many European states. The Iranian 'mole' that placed that virus into computers in Iran was actually working for the intelligence services of 'unsuspecting' Holland! You can read it HERE.

    Iran doesn't have any such program (nor the clout and power of a superpower like the US, nor an open line of communication between any dissenting voices in America to our foreign ministry as exists in the lines opened up for expression of such dissent to the State Department) and yet we have Iranian professors languishing in American jails for nonsensical alleged crimes! Many without even being charged with any crimes. Even Iranians being arrested outside in countries like Australia and New Zealand with the US seeking their extradition for totally ordinary activities which aren't ordinarily only because they involve Iran. By contrast, a rather innocuous Russian attempt to 'interfere in US elections' taking measures which are the bread and butter of the least objectionable American attempts to interfere in the politics of almost of every other country, led to the all the hoopla, indictments etc you are aware of.

    This thread is about protest in Iran which were designed to take place as a result of the US "maximum pressure campaign" and the host of measures including political and economic warfare being waged on Iran. Protests which were used by subversive terrorist groups to try to foment a Syrian style civil war, with these groups armed by foreign agents across Iranian borders: Via the Iraqi border, supplying arms and agents to organize Arab and Kurdish separatists and Sunni jihadist forces in Iranian Kurdistan and Khuzistan and via the Pakistanis (and to some extent Afghan) order to use this unruly and impoverished region of Iran (Iranian Baluchistan) which has many problems associated with the overland drug trade routes from Afghanistan and Pakistan and combined with ethnic and religious issues (the inhabitants are Sunni Muslims who are Baluchi with brethren in Pakistan), to supply it with arms and terrorist leaders. The evidence on this is clear and while you aren't familiar with it, those who follow not just what the US and western media say but also what is said in Iran, would know about that evidence.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
  7. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2015
    Messages:
    6,504
    Likes Received:
    1,646
    Trophy Points:
    113
    There are plenty of videos on youtube from different perspective and different people covering their impressions of visiting Iran. You can find the ones you like best. The one that I believe did a good job in capturing the essence of Iran (even if it didn't spent much time with more traditional Iranian families, who would be equally hospitable) is the 3-part series of travel in Iran by an American visitor which is featured below. This is a very good video because it doesn't focus much on either politics or even tourist attractions in Iran. Rather, it follows a trip across different parts of Iran to learn about Iran and its people. Please watch this and cross-reference its impressions with those of any other person who has actually visited Iran.





    This one (which I haven't watched carefully) appears to have a focus on tourist attractions besides the general impressions.


    Journalists with pro Israel agendas have visited Iran and reported on it, for Israeli and Jewish journalists, including the following account by an ultra Zionist pro Israel columnist Annika Hernroth-Rothstein (who writes for Jewish media in Israel) and whose account as a political commentator aren't as telling and revealing to me and which I found very biased. But I credit her for the fact that in response to the question: what surprised you the most about Iran? She quickly said: "how much I loved the country. Aside from Israel, I have never fallen so deeply in love with any country". (Go to 11:40-12:05). (Whatever she personally observed, I accept as being accounted honestly. Whatever she relates based on her notions, I reject).



    Impressions of Iran, and not merely its tourist attractions, are found in numerous sites including famous travel websites such as Lonely Planet, Trip Adviser, etc. Search any of them and see if any of them to see how openly Iranians welcome and interact with foreign visitors. And that is no coincidence; it is because Iran does NOT penalize innocent contacts with foreigners at all.
     
  8. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2017
    Messages:
    44,677
    Likes Received:
    12,448
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    There's a lot more going on in the universe than most imagine.


    I don't think creation stories associated with religions make much sense.
    Your "properly trained scholars" should have to compete in the world of ideas without a structural assist from government.
    How would any of this justify imposing religion on people?
     
  9. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2015
    Messages:
    6,504
    Likes Received:
    1,646
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Well, if you put it that way, it would be somewhat like me asking you: If the American people decide they want to have religious oversight of their government, how can they achieve that peacefully? In Iran, on this particular issue (unlike many others), the constitutional amendment procedures would not be sufficient. In the US, you could theoretically amend the constitution but the process would be next to impossible and would certainly require a persistent, super majority, sentiment behind such a change.

    The facts are simple even if you don't like them: the current Iranian system was born out of a revolution carried out by millions of unarmed demonstrators who paralyzed the Iranian economy through strikes and brought down a well armed regime (the regime of the Shah) and did so under the most famous banner and slogan of the Iranian revolution: "Esteghlal (Independence), Azadi (Freedom), Jomhouri Islami (Islamic Republic)". And they did this accepting the leadership of an octogenarian cleric living in exile who had put his views about government in writing in a treatise called Islamic Government: Guardianship of the Jurist. Secularists accounts of being misled by Ayatollah Khomeini are besides the point: those secularists were a much smaller minority then they are even now (and even now, they are a minority but a larger one). And then they adopted the current system overwhelming in a popular referendum and enacted the current constitution in a very democratic fashion.

    So, ultimately, if the Iranian people really wanted to change their system, they could do what they did at the time of the revolution, starting with the simplest nonviolent means available to them: go on nation-wide strikes like the ones in 1978-79. Either don't vote in Iran's elections (as opposed to participating so cheerfully and enthusiastically in such large numbers), or if they vote, vote blank and make it clear "blank" means "secular system". They could do a million and one things to bring down this regime without resorting to violence and force. They don't because they just don't have the numbers on their side.
     
  10. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2015
    Messages:
    6,504
    Likes Received:
    1,646
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I am not suggesting any belief in the stories of creation as recounted in any of the scriptures you are familiar with. Not at all. I am entirely in favor of whatever science shows. For me, science shows that the material world is not the entire universe. That doesn't mean I accept myths and tales of ancient traditions about creation! But if I wanted to accept a mythology that didn't follow the scientific method (and I don't), I personally would subscribe to the one from Iran's own pre-Islamic traditions (as captured in Iran's epic, the Shahnameh) and not the ones from any of the Abrahamic religions. (The story of creation in the Shahnameh actually has elements that fit the "Big Bang" theory and which also speaks of the emergence of humans in an evolutionary path, linking it to pre human creatures. It is mythology, to be sure, but I prefer it over the mythology of the Abrahamic religions, including Islam).

    Compete in the world of ideas is what I want. No problem with that. I am a critic of exactly this aspect in the training of Iran's current "shia scholars". Which is why their 'scholarship' lost much of its value and meaning in the past few centuries. Otherwise, until the 17th century in particular, they still represented the 'cutting edge' of philosophical, mathematical, and scientific knowledge in both East and West. The works of Persian scholars (albeit writing in Arabic and then translated into other languages) such as Avicenna, Rhazes and Khwarizmi were standard texts for teaching medicine and mathematics even in the West until the 17th century. The Persian poetry of Hafez, Rumi on the one hand, and the agnostic poetry of Omar Khayyam, on the other hand, is still among the most articulate literary works (even when translated into foreign languages) of enlightened belief in a higher being and skepticism. These were and are all poets which not only greatly influenced the East (and Iran in particular) but whose works had some influence even in the West. Rumi is to this day one of the best selling poets even in America! Hafez inspired Goethe explicitly and his "Divan" (named after Hafez's poetry). The Rubiyyat of Omar Khayyam, translated by Fitzgerald, was one of the most important pieces of English literature in the 19th and 20th century. And many of these Persian thinkers were themselves directly and indirectly influenced to varying degrees by Western ideas including prominently the ideas of the ancient Greeks. The fact that this interaction and learning from other cultures stopped in Iran's clerical institutions, with a clear division between East and West in learning developing (western universities versus seminaries as repositories of knowledge that had been developed basically up to the 18th century), isn't what I want nor is it justified by Iran's actual ideology. I believe knowledge is not owned by anyone: it evolves from human experiences all over and belongs to everyone who can find and learn that knowledge.

    You go back to unsupported assertions. No one has imposed Iran's system of government on the "Iranian people" except the Iranian people (in large majorities). All individuals living in a society are ultimately bound by its rules. And much of the things you imagine are being imposed on Iran in the name of "religion" are actually cultural norms, not religious ones per se. You may not like the cultural norm prevailing in Iran (and which evolves based on its own forces and traditions) but don't confuse that with the label "religion".
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
  11. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2018
    Messages:
    7,695
    Likes Received:
    2,310
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It's a good point. Doesn't negate what I said - the saying is not mine but one used in
    strategic calculations. However, had the USSR survived another two or three generations
    it might well have worn down the West.
     
  12. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2009
    Messages:
    5,805
    Likes Received:
    1,678
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The Soviet Union was based on a false premise, the individual exists to serve society. It was doomed to failure, as all tyrannies are.
     
  13. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2018
    Messages:
    7,695
    Likes Received:
    2,310
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That's true. But in strategic calculations what is important, I would suppose, is
    who will outlast whom? You could say the narcissism, anarchism and nihilism
    of the West could have done it in before the Soviet Union fell. And China today
    might show that tyrannies can survive, flourish and expand.
     
    Starjet likes this.
  14. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2009
    Messages:
    5,805
    Likes Received:
    1,678
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Agreed. Except for the prognosis for China, chain and would eventually become free or it will collapse, you can prosper based on lies
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
  15. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2009
    Messages:
    5,805
    Likes Received:
    1,678
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Sorry about the previous sloppy response—trying to do much at once.

    Here: Agreed. Except for the prognosis for China—She will eventually become free or she will collapse—a nation built upon false premises must either correct itself or perish.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
    Ddyad likes this.
  16. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2018
    Messages:
    7,695
    Likes Received:
    2,310
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I wonder if the boom is over for China. She grew rich
    through that Capitalist roadster Deng, but is now
    reverting more to form (think Great Leap Forward and
    the Cultural Revolution.) China is more feared today
    and many nations are taking steps to protect their
    industries and intellectual property.
     
    Ddyad likes this.
  17. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2009
    Messages:
    5,805
    Likes Received:
    1,678
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    If she crushes the fight for liberty in Hong Hong, she will suffer a huge setback, intellectually, economically, and morally. If she does the moral, which to me is inconceivable, and recognizes Hong Kong’s right to be free and self-governed, her future will be immeasurably better and brighter. Time will tell.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
    Ddyad likes this.
  18. Pipette8

    Pipette8 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2016
    Messages:
    2,952
    Likes Received:
    1,076
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yep. Blame the US because we all know Mossad isn't playing a part in all of this.
     
  19. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2018
    Messages:
    7,695
    Likes Received:
    2,310
    Trophy Points:
    113
    This is RICH. Iran does the HOSTAGE thing often with Westerners.
    Beginning with the illegal occupation of the US Embassy. Whenever
    Iran wants to "negotiate" something it often arrests visitors from those
    counties and uses them as part of the negotiation.
    Frankly, as much as I would love to see Iran, I would go there while
    the mad Mullahs are in control.
     
    Ddyad likes this.
  20. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2015
    Messages:
    6,504
    Likes Received:
    1,646
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You may believe what you wish, but other than the takeover of the US embassy several decades ago known in the US as the 'hostage crisis", what you say is nonsense. A few individuals among millions of people who visit Iran have been arrested by Iran and charged with espionage and related activities. Most of them were dual Iranian-American nationals. I may even question whether all of those arrested and charged were rightly arrested and charged, although I am generally reluctant to pass judgment on a case based on western reports about such cases. Regardless, the narrative you want to present is thankfully refuted, not by me, by hundreds of thousands of westerner who have visited Iran and have been vocal in trying to tell others how safe Iran is for foreigners to travel. When you google, "Iran travel" you get "About 393,000,000 results (0.75 seconds)". The handful of cases dealing with individuals arrested, charged and convicted of espionage and related actions aside, please find one account from all the ones you would be able to find that supports the narrative you like to present.

    Whether you choose to travel to Iran or not is your decision. Given travel restrictions imposed against Iranians traveling to the US, Americans traveling to Iran are subject to special restrictions and require a visa that isn't always easily given. But most visitors from Europeans countries, and dozens of other countries in Asia and elsewhere, can travel to Iran rather easily without any restrictions, collecting their visa at the airport if a visa is required and can go wherever they wish and see the country for themselves. Those include people of different stripes and political backgrounds and gender. It includes, incidentally for the attention of @LangleyMan, many women who travel hitchhiking around the country solo. Their accounts of such travel speaks for itself, as well as accounts you can read in any 'mainstream' travel site (e.g. Trip Adviser, Lonely Planet, etc).
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
  21. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2018
    Messages:
    7,695
    Likes Received:
    2,310
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Of course, you should understands that I meant to write
    "I would NOT go there while the mad Mullahs are in control"
    And I did not say that the "hostage crisis" was nonsense. We
    have international norms about the sanctity of embassies.
    Iran violated these norms.
    In Australia there are real issues currently about Chinese
    influence - but we don't storm their embassy.
     
  22. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    73,644
    Likes Received:
    13,766
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Have you ever been around any Wahhabis?
     
  23. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2015
    Messages:
    6,504
    Likes Received:
    1,646
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Whatever you are trying to say, you simply didn't understand what I wrote. But just to be clear: I actually don't excuse the takeover of the US embassy and the holding of its personnel captive. Not that I couldn't but if I did try to excuse it, I would be doing something out of partisanship and not genuine belief.
     
  24. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2017
    Messages:
    44,677
    Likes Received:
    12,448
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Yeah, sure. :rolleyes:
    So what? They're still clerics, and they still believe in deities that almost certainly do not exist, at least not as deities that take an interest in individuals. No one can save you from your inevitable end.
    Even infants have ideas about good and evil. A sense of good and evil appears to be innate, defined and modified by ideas people develop as they mature. Religious scholars have no more lock on truth than other scholars.
    All well and good, but please don't impose it on people.
    Eastern renaissance is no more relevant than Pan Arabism. All that stuff is part of a past that only has some elements that apply today. The Brits who want out of the EU--they, too, are trying to reconstruct the past. The U.S. under Trump is unsuccessfully pushing gunboat diplomacy with countries like Iran. More living in the past.
    Teaching Iranian children their country's history is something that makes sense to me.
     
  25. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2017
    Messages:
    44,677
    Likes Received:
    12,448
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    If the USSR had undergone a transformation as China did, perhaps.
     

Share This Page