Supreme Court rules in favor of baker in same sex wedding cake case. (Part 2)

What is your "kind?"

I have not.

 

In that particular instance it was because I was white and was exploring bars with some co-workers, we wandered into an Hispanic only bar apparently.

It’s a really bad feeling. And I know many posters here say they would just simply walk out and “move on” it’s really not that easy. You experience a range of emotions from rage to embarrassment.

I have other friends that are gay (you can tell from their voice alone) that have been refused service from cabs and told to leave a ball game he was at for his brother. Neither of the two are the type to cause a scene so they just left — in my instance I used some choice worlds.

All of the people cheering on discrimination and “religious refusals” have likely never had to experience it themselves and know they will probably never have to.

 

Extraordinary! Where?

Are you under the impression that this is what happened in this baker case?

Where and what year?

 

San Jose CA

I’m sure it was difficult for the couple — picking a wedding cake maker is apparently very important and seeing that they chose a location because they had received equal service from him in the past and they liked his product I’m sure it was heart wrenching for such an important day. That’s one of the reasons I am really torn on the issue — I support people not being forced to do things that go against their beliefs but I also support people being treated equally and with a certain level of dignity. The cake incident is now leading to religious refusals in funerals, in psychiatric and medical care, and in adoption.

One was in South Carolina the other in Tennessee. Both within the last 10 years.

 

Would this be a common occurrence in San Jose?

Are you sure that you are not thinking of the florist case? In that case the person requesting the service for the gay wedding was a past customer, but not in this case and I know the case very well indeed. Jack recounts that fateful day and he recounts the moment that the couple walked into his store and he introduced himself, so they clearly hadn't met before.

As you are torn, you might check out the below video:

Can you cite a funeral example?

 

Are they not an important item of display?

What do you mean by "style?"

This has got to be the SINGLE WORST argument in the debate, which always comes up! You're just the latest!

Does the Constitution define what it means to "practice religion?" Does it say that people only have a right to practice their religion in ways which are explicitly directed in the religious texts of each religion?

Are you actually unaware of what the Bible says about marriage?

Was the couple imposing their 'laws' on the baker?

Why is that?

 

The Bible permits divorce if it is on Biblical grounds. Do you expect that the Bible has a problem with a woman to remain married if her husband is beating the hell out of her every minute of the day? Try knowing something about the Bible before saying things about it. It does make me laugh every single time when someone goes down this road!

What the hell have you been reading? Have you even bothered to fact check this? Do you believe everything that you hear and read? A Google search returns no results about him refusing to sell bread for a dinner party!

 

I see that you weren't capable of replying. http://www.politicalforum.com/index...ke-case-part-2.537942/page-10#post-1070591521

 

According to Jesus, there is no legitmate reason for divorce other than infidelity. Any other reason is a sin. So anyone who has divorced for any reason other than their spouse's infidelity is committing a sin if they remarry. and any baker who knowingly makes a cake for such as wedding is a hypocrite if they then claim their "religious belief" to refuse service to someone else.

 

What the hell have you been reading? Have you even bothered to fact check this? Do you believe everything that you hear and read? A Google search returns no results about him refusing to sell bread for a dinner party!

 

The centerpiece of a wedding....are the people getting married. Unless we're talking about two cakes getting married. Are we?

Whatever design and artistic style, or lackthereof if someone just wants a plain old white one, that he applies to each cake he makes.

No it does not, which is probably why he was not found to have broken the law, which is why I said he was in the wrong ethically, not legally. Intellectually, you and I both know he was not violating any tenets of being a Christian by creating a cake for a gay wedding.

Are you? Or do you only know your narrowly chosen grabbag of bible bytes you use to support whatever beliefs you need to feel validated about?

The couple have no authority themselves to impose laws of any kind on anyone. Nor were they.

Because they lied and shielded themselves with the bible when it was really just subjective personal bias they were acting on.

 

Alright, forget about "centerpiece." Are they not an important item of display?

What the hell are you talking about? Don't you realise that he makes CUSTOM cakes? How can two custom cakes be the same?

He would never do a "plain old" cake. He customises every single wedding cake he does after consulting with the couple. He customises it with his creative and artistic expression. How can he possibly do that with something that he doesn't believe in? Could you bring yourself to provide a service to a KKK meeting?

It's not that it would violate any tenets of being a Christian, it's that he would not be able to customise a cake with his creative and artistic expression, because the cake would be reflecting something that he doesn't believe in. I'm sure that he could've easily made a totally blank wedding cake, but that wouldn't be something that he would be proud of as an artist.

No, I'm not unaware of what the Bible says about marriage? The Bible is CRYSTAL clear on marriage being between a man and a women.
Are you under the impression that this is merely just a "bible byte?" Surely you can't be serious! State otherwise with a Biblical quote. And what's "grabbag?"

Well what authority does the baker have to impose laws on anyone?

Please state where Jack mentioned The Bible.

 

To varying degrees, but not until the reception after the wedding part is already done.

The cakes don't have to be the same to be created with the same process and with the same general artistic efforts. As far as the KKK goes, no I probably wouldn't knowingly do so. But this baker could. Functionally, though they have different methods, the Baker and the KKK have the same underlying motivations. Twisting religion into conforming to their own biases. The baker just does it to gay people instead of black people.

He's not just an artist. He opened a business that is open to the public to sell his services. He's a businessman.

Where is the part that commands a Christian to abstain from attending a gay wedding? What passage prevents a person from doing business with a gay person?

None. He wasn't imposing a law. What he did do is to refuse to provide a service he makes readily available to others by claiming religious privilege to cover up what amounts to nothing more than subjective personal bias. He didn't violate the law as I've said before, but he is ethically and intellectually dishonest.

Where else or with what else can a Christian claim that something violates his religious beliefs if those beliefs are not rooted in the Bible?

 

Define "general artistic efforts." There is nothing "general" about CUSTOMISING something. Just how NON-"general" does something have to be in order to be considered customised in your mind?

Why can the baker provide the service that he doesn't want to provide but you CANNOT provide the KKK service that you don't want to provide? Double standard?

So every business should sell to everyone?

None, but I thought that you were trying to say that the Bible doesn't say that marriage is between a man and a woman.

Then why did you say the below?

The belief that marriage is between a man and a woman IS rooted in the Bible! How are you not getting this?

 

You're splitting irrelevant hairs here. All I am describing is the general process through which one creates something. When an artist paints a picture, he doesn't reinvent the wheel each time. The content of the painting may change and they may change ingredients in the paints even, but the process itself remains largely the same. And none of this makes any difference towards the situation we're discussing.

I would very likely be required by law to provide service to the KKK because I can't shield myself with nonsense religious exemptions.

Every business should sell to everyone unless there are actual business reasons not to, i.e. expenses are higher than profit, you don't have the ability to meet the demand, etc etc. Your personal beliefs should not be a part of who you sell to, it should be a part of the decision on whether to sell at all, to everyone.

No, that part of the bible is clear. But that only pertains to the people in the marriage, not the person making a cake for the wedding reception, after the marriage itself is over.

I spoke incorrectly and should have used the word "beliefs" instead of "laws". The latter is incorrect, because the baker can't impose laws, and because there are no laws in the bible that forbid him to make a cake for a gay wedding in the first place.

Correct, but the bible does not command Christians to shun gay people or forbid them from making food for them. So when the baker claimed that making a cake for a gay wedding violated his religious beliefs, he was using the bible to hide the real reason he didn't want to do it. He doesn't like gay people. He was not acting under any kind of religious requirement.

 

I agree, in terms of the physical production, in how it is physically formed, but does the CREATIVE and ARTISTIC EXPRESSION remain the same?

The baker could what?

What Public Accommodation law in the US includes 'political ideology' as something which cannot be used as a basis
for discrimination? Anyway, I'm asking you why you wouldn't want to provide a service to a KKK meeting.

Are you of the INSANE and UTTERLY RIDICULOUS, JOKE brand of Libertarianism that Gary Johnson represents?
I remember that this UTTER JOKE of a man said that a Jewish baker should have to make a NAZI wedding cake! THAT'S NOT LIBERTARIAN Gary!

Weren't the couple trying to impose their beliefs onto the baker?

It doesn't NEED to in order for a believer to not want to provide their labour to something which they disagree with based on the Biblical
definition of marriage! Anyway, this baker did NOT shun the gay couple! He offered them all other services that his business provides!

If he doesn't like gay people, then why is he happy to serve them and does so all the time?

Correct, it's not a religious requirement to refuse service to gay weddings. However, this is TOTALLY irrelevant!

 

@Junkieturtle, it seems that you have finally understood.