Supreme Court rules in favor of baker in same sex wedding cake case. (Part 2)

Discussion in 'Civil Rights' started by chris155au, Jul 21, 2018.

  1. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    Then what's the point of all this?
    You remain free to believe businesses should be able to select their customers, and I remain free to believe they should serve all customers without profiling them.
    Most likely should an instance occur conforming to your belief I would likely side with the customer and hope the courts would do the same.
     
  2. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Sure, but your belief conflicts with your other belief that business shouldn't be forced to perform acts which they disagree with.
     
  3. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    No, I believe ALL customers should be treated the same. If you're in business to sell a product it should make no difference who the customer is buying the product, a can of soup, fuel, cakes, etc. No one should be 'required' to produce or become involved in something they otherwise disagree with, a same sex decorated wedding cake, catering a KKK rally, etc.
     
  4. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Now I'm really confused. Previously you said that a gay baker should have to bake a cake for a member of an anti gay hate group.
     
  5. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    A cake like he/she would bake for any other customer, yes, absolutely.
     
  6. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    No you don't though, because you make the exceptions of serving customers same sex wedding cakes and catering stuff for KKK rallies!

    "They otherwise disagree with" They DISAGREE with the worldview of the member of the anti-gay hate group!
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2018
  7. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    Does the baker normally produce same sex wedding cakes?
    Could the food preparer simply agree to produce the food and allow them to find others to present themselves at the rally and distribute it?


    I disagree with the worldview of many people I do business with each and every day, and have done so all my life.

    I would have no problem with your country following such a path, but not mine.
     
  8. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Does it matter? What difference would it make if it was their main business or only a small part of their business?

    Sure they could. What is your point?

    The point is that you said that "no one should be required to produce or become involved in something they otherwise disagree with." If you believe this, then why are you saying that the gay baker should have to serve customers who hate gay people?
     
  9. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    If the baker produces same sex wedding cakes already, then what are we talking about?


    The point was made, "Sure they could."


    Businesses produce a product, they should not be forced to produce one to make it gay if they don't want to, and the only involvement they have with any customer is a business transaction, money for product.
     
  10. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    I thought you were asking if the baker normally produces wedding cakes.

    Are you actually asking, does the baker who refuses to produce a same sex wedding cake normally produce same sex wedding cakes? Surely not!

    So the food preparer can simply agree to produce the food and find others to present the catering at the rally and distribute it. What are you saying about this fact?

    Make it gay? LOL. I think you've totally misunderstood me. Here it is again: The point is that you said that "no one should be required to produce or become involved in something they otherwise disagree with." If you believe this, then why are you saying that the gay baker should have to serve customers who hate gay people?
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2018
  11. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    If it's not something the baker normally produces, he can only offer what it is he does. Take it or leave it.


    Simply saying the food preparer can offer to produce the food and allow the purchaser to take delivery of it and find someone else who is willing to involve themselves with those it will be distributed to at the rally.


    As long as they pay their bill and initiate no commotion they should be served at the place of business. But if that is unacceptable in your country, I would have no problem and simply not travel there and share my reasons with others, but not try to change anything.
     
  12. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Lets say no. What then?

    Okay, but you would also say that they should be allowed to deny service altogether for the rally, right?

    Would you say that a gay person would disagree with an anti-gay hater?
     
  13. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    Can't sell what you don't make.


    They should not be compelled to take part in the rally, simply prepare the food to be served, allowing the rally creators to find people willing to mingle at the rally.


    You need to ask a gay person that question. What's an anti-gay hater, someone who hates anti-gay people?
     
  14. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    You realise that all that matters is that if the baker bakes HETEROSEXUAL wedding cakes, they must also bake same sex ones according to the law, right? You seem to be saying that a baker should be able to get away with refusing to bake same sex wedding cakes if they simply argue that they don't normally bake same sex wedding cakes. Is this what you are saying?

    How are they not taking part in the rally just by preparing the food?

    Are you serious? Use your imagination! I'll ask a different way: Would you say that a gay person would disagree with a gay hater's opinion on gay people?
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2018
  15. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    A while ago I bought a new motorcycle. I prefer Red but the Honda dealer said the bike I wanted was only available in Black or White. I chose Black.


    Would a hardware store owner be taking part in a murder by selling someone a screwdriver which was used by the purchaser to stab someone to death?


    What's the point of such a question?
     
  16. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Did the dealer have any control over you being able to get a red one?

    Only if the customer told them what what it was going to be used for. In the caterer scenario, they know what event it is for. So again, how are they not taking part in the rally just by preparing the food?

    To show you how you have contradicted yourself. Obviously you would say that a gay person would disagree with a gay hater's opinion on gay people. The contradiction is that you said this:
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2018
  17. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    Could have offered to paint it.


    Don't ask, don't tell, just sell them what you have and take their money.


    Perhaps by your interpretation of my words, not mine.
     
  18. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Did you ask him to paint it?

    Oh sure, but what if the customer just tells them without the caterer asking?

    What have I misinterpreted?
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2018
  19. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    No

    So what?

    My words.
     
  20. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Then how was your motorbike story at all relevant?

    So how are they not taking part in the rally by preparing the food when they've been informed what the event is?

    So what did you mean when you said, "no one should be 'required' to produce or become involved in something they otherwise disagree with, a same sex decorated wedding cake, catering a KKK rally, etc?" Because you clearly don't mean that a gay baker should be able to refuse service to a gay hater who they obviously "disagree" with.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2018
  21. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    I guess you have you have reached the end of trying to defend your position.
     
  22. Richard The Last

    Richard The Last Well-Known Member

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    Based on this decision I have decided in my business I will no longer provide service to Christians, Jews, Women over 47.5 years of age and anyone with French heritage.

    I mean that's what it's all about isn't it? I shouldn't have to provide service to anyone I don't feel like providing service to.

    History repeating itself? No Irish! No Colored! Now no Gays!

    Wow! America, what a country.
     
  23. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    You realise that you will be breaking the Civil Rights Act?

    Correct, you should not. And the way that Public Accommodation laws are written, you DON'T have to provide service to anyone that you don't feel like providing service to, you just can't refuse services on the basis of race, religion, national origin, sex or sexual orientation.

    No gays what?
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2018
  24. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    To me this isn't complicated the 1st Amendment protects religious freedom including philosophies amounting to the level of a religion such as humanism and that is Constitutional level protection the supreme law of the land unless amended or we ratified a treaty which then has impact. The protections on many groups fall under that common Federal and in this case even below that State law in the case of homosexuals. To compare as a disabled person my protections are under a law the ADA and it offers many protections but isn't at the Constitutional level and I would say if a religion said I'm not a human being and have no rights I would not expect followers of that faith to grant me rights other than those afforded to an citizen, if I wanted a wheelchair cake for Disabled Peoples Day they might not make one for me, but their bakery would need to be accessible since its Federally required. Now say we signed and ratified a treaty saying we would treat disabled people the same as any other group which has Constitutional levels of protection (terms to fit that) then he would be stuck since it would have the same weight as any other group at that level including religious.

    Now in this case its a State law it cannot trump Federal Law and of course the Constitution the supreme law, the 10th Amendment can't be invoked since the 1st Amendment is a defined Federal supreme power being in the same document so the same terms and the Constitution applies first.

    I know it sucks but if a White Aryan Church member didn't want to make something for black people I would defend their rights to not do so on the same grounds.

    I will add the public commons can still boycott or act in a way if lawful to hurt their business for discrimination regardless under the same rights to freedom of speech if the reason is proper the reason is true they did in fact not make a cake for a wedding due to the couple being say mixed race (just being black wouldn't likely be a problem so lets say a black person marring a white person as objectionable).
     
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  25. Puppy

    Puppy Member

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    To me the public accommodation laws appear to be not very good, because it really is not the government's business whether the proprietor of a private business wants to exclude anybody for any any reason at all. I mean, it's HIS business, so he gets to decide.

    Of course, this could potentially mean that certain groups of people (for example, gays), might end up not being able to buy things that they need in order to live, because its possible that no owner of any grocery store would serve them. Its not highly likely but technically possible.
     
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