The Bible

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by usfan, Oct 2, 2018.

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  1. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I've spent several decades studying the Bible and all the History, background and cultures. I've seen many such programmes, read many books on the subject. I got 3/4 of the way through the article. Please don't insult my intelligence. It will make some money for him. This 'house like Abraham would have had'? And the 'red haired man' and the man in a 'multicoloured coat'.4000 years old? 11 tombs and a Pyramid tomb. (Josephs and his brothers?) Later on, he builds a Jericho city for the film to shadow the original. Does he create an earthquake area?
    .
    It must be true because Jesus quoted from Moses? Of course Jesus quoted Moses - and others. From the age of 5 he had been brought up to believe it. He had studied the Tanakh from 5 until 13 years of age. He was intelligent in the scriptures. He had nothing else to believe. Christian Parents teach their children to believe, but today we have secular education and other choices, he had none. It was part of his culture.

    Oh, please. It might make a good film
     
  2. bricklayer

    bricklayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I predict that your efforts to disallow me from employing any prerequisite I choose to employ will continue to be ineffectual.
     
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  3. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I didn't suggest you should be "disallowed" anything.

    And, I stated that I'm not interested in attempting to affect what you believe.

    In general, my direction is to point toward ways in which we can work together even when we don't share a religion.

    But, I do hold the line concerning science and the supernattural. Science and the supernatural don't mix. Period. If they DID mix, then the supernatural wouldn't actually BE supernatural.

    Your relilgion is "safe" from science, as there is no way to gather evidence of a scientific nature concerning the supernatural. You mentioned that you appreciate science, so I suppose it's not necessary to say this.
     
  4. tealwings

    tealwings Well-Known Member

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    Im not justifying anything I agree with you in many ways, but you seem to throw everything else out and hone in on good works alone.
    How are these works judged, what are they measured by? Does stealing to feed your family count as good? What about giving an addict the ability to keep on using "in the name of "love". What about helping hordes of people over the border.
    Since most people somewhere and sometime in their lives have done good...wth do we need Jesus words or the Bible at all. Many people think we dont. ::shrug:: I was wondering if this is what you are getting at.
    Im assuming you think Tim Tebow is a goat and all fundamentalists.

    btw Im far from a fundamentalist but how are those warnings NOT slightly valid? What can alcohol lead to or any mind altering substance? Premarital sex? Look at all the problems with unwanted children...could maybe the people who created the child be comitted to raising it? nahh thats crazy.
     
  5. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I think many of the warnings ARE at least slightly valid - perhaps more so. With alcohol, a propensity to overconsume probably has to be treated with total abstinance, for example. So, in the context of Bacchanaliia and overconsumption, a call for total abstinance may be justiified. Proscriptions concerning premarital sex seem logical, but don't sound very realistic. And, there were abortions in 1AD - without any proclamation against that to be found in the Bible as far as I know. I don't know what you mean by your comment on raising children for which one is responsible. I suspect very few think that is crazy.

    Maybe I'm missing your larger point.
     
  6. bricklayer

    bricklayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    [QUOTE="WillReadmore, post: 1070151395, member: 64

    I think sharing a view of the supernatural can not be allowed as a prerequisit to working together toward an ever improving civilization.[/QUOTE]

    This is where you would disallow me to employ any prerequisite I choose to employ.
    This is where I am left to believe you will continue to fail.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
  7. ToddWB

    ToddWB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Uhh... what article??... It did make a pretty good film, a documentary.
     
  8. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You're probably too young the have seen 'The Robe'. Film about the crucifixion of Jesus and the supposed guilt of the 'crucifier'. That was a good film too - very imaginative.
     
  9. ToddWB

    ToddWB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Hollywood, not a documentary
     
  10. ToddWB

    ToddWB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  11. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You should read the Armana Letters. Egypt was governing Palestine.

    The Amarna Letters are complaints about the attacks, written from these city-state rulers to Pharaoh and asking Pharaoh for troops.

    One group of letters in particular interested scholars. These were sent by Er-Heba, the Egyptian ruler of Jerusalem. In his letters, he complains of the SA.GAZ, or Habiru, as attacking and raiding the Pharaoh's lands aroundJerusalem.

    Er-Heba's request is urgent, as he is adamant about the threat of losing Jerusalem to the Habiru. Oftentimes, Er-Heba opens his letters with the salutation: "I fall at the feet of my lord, the king, seven times and seven times."

    He continues with the danger to Jerusalem.

    "They have siezed the land of Rubute. The land of the king has fallen away to the Habiri. And now, even a city of the Jorusalem district, Bit-in-ib by name, a city of the king, has fallen away to the side of the people of Qeila. Let the king listen to Er-Heba, your servant, and send an army of archers that they might restore the land of the king to the king. For if there are no army of archers the land of the king will fall away to the Habiri."

    Er-Heba's situation is such that he may have to hand over Jerusalem if the Pharaoh doesn't send help.

    "Now shall we do as Lab'ayu, who gave the land of Shechem to the Apiru?"

    Lab'ayu is mentioned in several letters. He was the acting ruler of Shechem, and the rival of Er-Heba for control over the hill country. It is significant to note that even before the establishment of the Israelites, Shechem and Jerusalem were in contention for control of the hill country of Canaan. Both sat astride important trade and travel routes.

    The Habiru control Shechem. What is even more significant, is that Er-Heba makes the claim Shechem was handed over to the Apiru, one of multiple appellations used to describe the Habiru in the Amarna tablets. The fact that Habiru exercised some extent of control over Shechem in the 14th century is especially interesting when one takes into account the importance Shechem played in the early development of Israel.

    It became a principle center of Hebrew worship, and in fact became the first capital of Israel. Military activity in southern Canaan during the 14th century has tantalized Biblical scholars, and Shechem's importance in the Amarna tablets imply a Hebrew/Habiru connection of some sort.

    Lab'ayu seems to have sided with the Habiru, as is evident in a letter from Biridiya, prince of Megiddo.

    "Now behold the two sons of Labaya have given their money to the SA.GAZ and to men of the land of Kashshi to make war against me."

    Other letters from Rib-Addi imply a significant and long term Habiru presence in Canaan. One such letter was written to Amenhotep III. In part, it read:

    "Since the return of your father from Sidon-from his days the land have been going over to the SA.GAZ."

    This letter is an overt statement proving the Habiru resided in Canaan before the time of the Amarna tablets. They are referred to using many appellations; SA.GAZ, Habiru, Hapiri, Apiru, Apiri. The various names lend more credence to their prior existence, and as will be seen, are a result of their interactions with many of the different cultures and people in the ancient Near East.

    Rib-Addi calls the land surrounding Byblos, "the land of the Amurru". The Amurru were also known as Amorites, a prominent people in the Old Testament. Their leader was Abdi-Ashirta, a rival of Rib-Addi. In other ancient sources, the Amurru are referred to using the logogram SA.GAZ. Abdi-Ashirta, prince of the Amurru people, was also referred to as SA.GAZ

    Royal governors from all parts of Canaan complained of the SA.GAZ to Pharaoh. Zimridda, governor of Sidon, stated:

    "All the cities that the king gave in my charge have gone over to the SA.GAZ."

    Native rebels also seemed to have joined forces with the Habiru. In one letter, a local governor writes of the rebel troops and their activities with the Habiru.

    "Its horses and its chariots they have given to the SA.GAZ."


    It becomes evident that Habiru is used as a negative term in the Amarna Letters. They are portrayed as plundering the land, and shifting alliances from one kingdom to another, in exchange for provisions, food, and shelter.

    From Sidon in the north, to Jerusalem in the south, and all lands in between, the Habiru made their presence known.

    In fact, due to their destructive nature in Canaan, and the negative connotations in the Amarna Letters, the term began to apply to a wider range of people.

    It seems that the takeover was from within, rather than without. Egypt was engaged in problems with the Hittites, it's power was weakening and around 1100BCE would split. North/South

    Margaret Mitchell wrote a good novel which became an alltime great film - 'Gone with the Wind'. But I doubt anyone would accept it anything more than a novel based on some history.
     
  12. ToddWB

    ToddWB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    My wife got mad at me and went to a little adobe house I had, she returned about 45 minutes latter and visible upset (at least it wasn't me at that time, she'd forgotten about whatever she was displeased about) She starts sputtering about "Something in that house". I asked her "Did you see the "Black Shadow'? I had dismissed it myself, figured it was what is called either "night terrors" or "Sleep Paralysis". I had to reconsider. Was some property of that ancient house causing hallucinations? Well I didn't think that was likely as we both described the exact same sighting, so we prayed to God, the Son and the Holy Ghost to remove the entity from that house. We never saw it there again. A year or so goes by. We have another house, a modern trailer house that wasn't more than 5 years old, we rent it out, at this particular time a couple, the husband was in our small town to work on a construction project. They both approached my wife and I (we live on the same estate) and babbled about, . I don't remember what they said, they were doing their best not to just come out with what upset them about the abode, so after a few minutes I asked "did you see something in there", more excited babbling indicating that they were not coming across as mentally unbalanced and then their stories.. she had seen it first.. he didn't believe her, at first, then they both had seen it while together.. the "Black Shadow". I said " you whipped out the Book and asked Jesus to remove it didn't you." There was one other person that had seen it, our daughter, she has seen otherworldly entities before.. the one I remember was a full body of a apparition of a :little girl" she heard laugh or giggle and turned to see it.
    Now with multiple sightings of the occurrence, by at least 5 people, in two not very separate locations.. what do YOU think it was?
    If you have never seen something of the supernatural, it maybe that #1 You don't want to see them and in fact will explain any strange occurrence away. # You are Christian, a part of the Body of Christ, and therefore the sighting of a "demon" would do nothing but strengthen your faith, or Satan already owns you and would discourage any of his demons to put an idea in your head that the supernatural world exist.
    There are many more pieces photographic evidence I have seen captured by people I know personally, the fabrication of which would be beyond their technical abilities.
    It's easy enough to debunk You Tube videos (as are most, not all, of those "Ghost hunter" shows, and in fact many are nothing more than clique bait.. but not all of them. What I do know is if you chose to seek out the "supernatural" you very well find it, and it is not something you want to do.
     
  13. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The Jesus of John says it

    John 14:28

    You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I am coming to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I.
     
  14. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You make a whole bunch of assumptions in the above post that do not apply to me (strawmen)... some on the other hand do.

    1) The topic that was being discussed was "Sola Fide". "Salvation by Faith Alone". My claim is simply that the Jesus of Matt contradicts sola fide.

    It is not like this is some new argument - the Majority of Christianity (Catholic/Orthodox - and even some Protestants) do not accept sola fide.

    The question here is not what I think. The question being discussed is what did the Jesus of the Sermon on the Mount - the Jesus of Matt/Mark think ?

    2) Tim Tebow may not be a goat. Jesus condemns public displays - like that of Tebow - but, this does not mean Tebow is condemned to hellfire. Not all sinning condemns a person - you are ignoring the concept of forgiveness.

    I do not think Jesus said that those who steal bread to feed their family are condemned .. and so on.

    Jesus says "only those who do the will of the Father" ... What do you think Jesus means by this - said in summary at the end of the Sermon on the Mount - Matt 5-7 ?
     
  15. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What has the supernatural' got to do with a 'god'.? The two are so often associated for no particular reason I can see. The 'supernatural' is simply something beyond our current understanding. Are there such things as ghosts? Spirits? (apart from the alcoholic). Is that what our 'energy' becomes, on another parallel universe. Can they travel to and fro? We only have the scientific explanation for death, what happens to the body. .What was the presence I used to feel when seated at a Church Organ. Was that my mother - who was also a Church Organist for many years in a different, and distant , church..
    How could a woman I knew come up to me in the street - twice - and tell me what I had dreamt during the previous night, by repeating what she had dreamt. She could not have known the subject of the dream. It was in my distant past and I had told no-one.

    Life is odd.
     
  16. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    But not the teachings given in the sermon BEFORE he makes that statement?

    Do you not know that the Pharisees rejected Jesus? Why would Jesus use them as a benchmark?

    Are you sure? 25:12: "But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.'"

    Who the hell are the people in Matt 25 who DON'T know Jesus, but get in anyway? Jesus talks about the Righteous who get in v34-36, and then the others who do not get in, in v41-46.

    What does Jesus say which demonstrates that it is NOT possible that Sola Fide is the only way to do what Jesus teaches, to his satisfaction?

    I'm talking about Paul. You said that Paul does not have a physical resurrection. Well he obviously refers to the resurrection so I have no idea what you're taking about.
     
  17. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If you can't figure out the difference that Jesus saying "I don't know you" in the earlier passage has nothing to do with the people who got into heaven on the basis of works in the Sheep/Goats parable I can't help you. You are desperately grasping at straws and wallowing in absurdity.

    Obviously - Jesus stating that the will of the father is doing good deeds/avoiding bad deeds- means that it is not possible that Sola Fide was the only way.

    Paul does refer to the resurrection and he believes that Jesus was resurrected after death. What Paul does not believe is that Jesus wandered the earth in the flesh after death. Paul likened the appearances of Jesus after his death to his vision.

    Having a "vision" of Jesus is not the same as seeing Jesus wandering around in the flesh.
     
  18. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    I didn't say that it DID have anything to do with the Sheep/Goats parable. Originally, you just referenced "Matt 25" without mentioning which parable, so how the hell was I supposed to know which part you were talking about? Anyway, moving on: who the hell are the people in Matt 25 who DON'T know Jesus, but get in anyway? Jesus talks about the Righteous who get in v34-36, and then the others who do not get in, in v41-46. Why didn't you respond to this in your last reply? Not to mention the rest that you didn't respond to.

    Yes, but two things can be true at once. Why can't you say that Sola Fide is NOT the only way, good works is enough, but the only way to do those good works is to have faith?

    What passage are you talking about?
     
  19. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    And is it settled?

    No direction from God WHATSOEVER?
     
  20. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The "righteous" are "righteous" on the basis of the good deeds that they did. Those that did the good deeds did not know it was Jesus that they were helping. It is a literary device for - these people do not know Jesus. They did good works without the promise of some eternal reward.

    Regardless of whether or not you get the obvious meaning - what is stated directly is two group of people. One group does good works and gets in, the group who does not do good works does not. Do you understand that much ? Do you understand that it is on the basis of "Good works" that Jesus is putting these folks through the pearly gates ??

    You are deluding yourself. Sola Fide = faith alone - that works will not help you get into heaven. That you can get into heaven simply by having faith and there is no other way. If you don't have faith you don't get in and you do not have to do any works to get in.

    I did not invent this dogma. It is what it is. Jesus states that you must do works to get in. The Jesus if Matt gives a works based salvation formulation.

    "works are required" contradicts "works are not required"

    Jesus obviously does not think "faith alone" is enough.

    1 Corinthians 15


    Some NT sources do not mention the 500 (which is interesting- more pious fraud). So Paul's use of the word "appeared" = something akin to his vision.
     
  21. Frogger

    Frogger Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Pisa,
    You asked what faith means to me. To me faith means I believe Jesus was and is the Christ. He is God made man who, while totally without sin, took on my sin and died in propriation for it. Faith is my belief that Christ died for my sin, rose into heaven, and will come again. Faith is my belief that I can do nothing to earn salvation. There are no deeds I can do that make me worthy of salvation. But, my faith says God the Father freely offers me salvation, not because of any deeds by me but because he so loved me as to send his only begotten son to die for me. It is that faith that sets me free.
     
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  22. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Do you not know that the Pharisees rejected Jesus? Why would Jesus use them as a benchmark?

    I understand that, but weren't you talking about people who do NOT know Jesus but still get in anyway?

    What if ALL NT sources mentioned the 500? Would that change anything for you?
     
  23. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Desperate grasping at straws .. which completely ignores the rest of the Sermon in desperate hope.

    Correct - The people that get in in the Sheep and Goat's parable do not know Jesus. Conversely people that do know Jesus - and have faith in Jesus - in Matt 7:21 do not get in.

    Of course. That would make the passage less unreliable - obviously. What lends further credibility to pious fraud is that Matt and John make no mention of the 500. We could perhaps understand Matt not making mention of this - although that is a stretch but not John.

    Regardless - you have once again avoided the central point = Paul does not know anything about zombie Jesus wandering around after death.
     
  24. Frogger

    Frogger Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If you say SOLA FIDE is not enough and must be accompanied by works you are replacing God’s justification with your own. You are negating God’s gift by saying you, as a person, are capable of earning your way into heaven. You are, in effect, placing yourself on an equal footing with God. You are saying that your works are worthy of wages and that you can earn sufficient wages to make it into heaven. This directly contradicts John 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son that whosoever believes shall have eternal life.” It doesn’t say that whosoever believes and does good works. It says, whosoever believes. It is entirely a gift from God
     
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  25. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'm not negating anything. I am merely pointing out what the Jesus of Matt said. Blame Jesus for contradicting John 3:16 - not me.
     
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