"The brain hasn't turned on yet, so it's okay to kill"

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by kazenatsu, Sep 9, 2021.

  1. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    You:
    """"Maybe your REAL argument is"""


    Maybe if you have to make up things about what the other poster says YOU have no real argument..
     
  2. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    Morals or ethics have nothing to do with abortion choice. Unless one is using some religion as a basis. And religion can't make USA laws.
     
  3. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    Something not alive, can't be killed. Legally dead = no brainwave activity.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2021
  4. LiveUninhibited

    LiveUninhibited Well-Known Member

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    No, because doctors understand enough about embryology and the brain by the end of medical school that they know the embryo is not a person, except maybe if their religion or political party confuses them on it. Less likely to be religious or republican? Yes. Less likely to be ethical? No. An unethical doctor would probably choose something more lucrative like dermatology.

    True and we've made strides in that regard by moving away from fee for service which can cause overtreatment (put doctors on salary, maybe with overall organization bonuses ideally for meeting quality measures, not Quantity). Must align incentives to reduce bad behavior, even among doctors. Also, HMOs lose money by doing procedures, so it works the other way too.

    In the US, usually women have a specific doctor they know and trust for their annual exams if they're insured. They go to the ER, urgent care, or planned parenthood equivalent as needed if not. Shopping around isn't needed, but I guess texans will need to leave the state. Abortion is not unethical.

    Making a decision for the patient is not ethical. It violates informed consent. Usually, the insured woman approaches her gynecologist about it, and it's outside of their scope of practice (or less often they're against abortions). They are ethically required to refer to somebody who can perform abortions if she requests it. They are also ethically required to tell her all the options available to her with the goal to inform rather than persuade. This is literally what is taught in medical school, at least in California.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
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  5. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think you just have a vivid imagination here.

    First of all, most doctors--and yes, even abortion doctors--don't really learn all that much about embryology and the different stages of fetal development.
    It's a very specialized study, and almost all of the people who officially study it go on to become researchers or professors. There's not really that many people who are qualified experts on it.

    The practicing doctors who would know the most about it would probably be neonatal specialists and reproductive doctors, but even they are not really experts specifically on that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
  6. GrayMan

    GrayMan Well-Known Member

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    Killing people, even animals is a moral choice unless you have no morals.
     
  7. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Remember, you're talking to pro-choicers.

    I've noticed that many of them do not even believe morality really exists, when you start trying to pin them down on it. They believe "right and wrong" is about feelings and utilitarianism.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
  8. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    """I think you just have a vivid imagination here.""


    Is this what your thread is about?


    I have never seen anyone post that they don't believe "morality really exists"....


    Pro-Choicers believe "right and wrong" is about protecting people's rights ..


    Anti-Choicers FEEL that abortion is "murder" with never a shred of proof.....they FEEL women should be punished for having sex.

    They FEEL with never any facts or logical reasons
     
  9. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    YOU have NO idea what doctors know or don't know....I think you just have a vivid imagination here pretending you know what doctors know...that's preposterous...you're flailing due to lack of argument to make women nothing more than slaves..
     
  10. CKW

    CKW Well-Known Member

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    Imo Prochoicers know that if they were killed before they were born...they would be simply be dead. I don't think it matters to them, because they weren't killed and they don't care if others are killed because it doesn't affect them. They don't value babies because babies keep women from being equal to men in things like the physical demands of child birth, career path and sex with no consequences. Really it's a matter of priorities. I think it's weird how they try to project an unborn child as a tumor, skin cell or parasite...but I guess that makes killing it more palatable.
     
  11. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    .

    Well, uh, ya...most people realize that...:roll:
    Unborn ZEFs don't affect you either.


    Show proof of that...Hint: you have none.



    Yes, they do and that's why it's the woman's decision whether to have one or not.

    Pro-Choicer don't force women to abort , they want them to have the same rights YOU have ...but Anti-Choicers want to force women to gestate...rapists also use force on women.


    .
    .

    Yes, pregnant women's priorities..

    I think it's weird how Anti-Choicers try to project a ZEF as the Gerber baby...but I guess when you have no facts an emotional appeal is all ya got :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
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  12. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    How high are you right now?
     
  13. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    It is not like anti-abortionists are better since they believe morality comes in the form of commandments from God and are obligations to be obeyed in the name of altruism with a superstitious belief in "the after-life" as the ultimate reward of being moral.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
  14. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    Ah yes. The Conservative wants a government commitee to decide for both citizens and scientists what is right and what is wrong. What ever happened to defending the Constitution and advocating small government and freedom?

    You guys are awful and tje greatest threat to America today. Far, far, far more so than The Left.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
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  15. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    I freak out over primitive irrationality and mystic whim because I believe that reason is what kreps a society civilised. Anyone who wants to throw reason out the door and replace it with divine revelation is paving the way to a new Dark Ages defined by barbarianism, misery and slaughter.

    This is not the religion sub and the legal status of abortion is an issue that ought to be kept separate from religion. I have all the right to be freaked out because history proves what happens when religion is taken seriously.

    If I told you that I am pro-abortion because Thor emerged from the rain-clouds and whispered in my ear that only the born has the right to life you would laugh at me and rightfully so. Anyone who uses God, souls, holy scriptures or any other form of mysticism to argue for their position on abortion do not deserve anything but ridicule.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
  16. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    In short you are arguing against the concept by which we medically establish 'brain death' and subsequently determine that a lack of any evidence of brain activity means that a person is no longer alive for legal purposes, and loses the legal rights of a person to medical care

    Its not a surprise, considering that many in the pro life movement extend their activism to oppose the removal of life support after such determination.

    Just clearing this line of argument up.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
  17. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    Abortion is for certain very moral. Denying a woman that right is for certain very immoral.
     
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  18. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The difference is that when 'brain death' occurs in a hospital patient we know that brain is not going to later come back to life. (This is where potentiality enters the equation)

    If we were simply to administer a hypothetical pharmacological drug to suppress any brain activity, and we knew eventually the effects of this drug would wear off and the patient would return, it would not be okay to kill that patient while they were 'brain dead' (no brain activity occurring).

    (Suppose such a drug were required for some medical treatment to save the patient's life, for example. The patient would also probably have to be kept in an iron lung machine or a cardiopulmonary bypass if the lungs stopped functioning due to the brain being turned off)
     
  19. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    Why are we talking about stupid hypotheticals? What is it you are trying to say exactly?
     
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  20. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You're not very good at following the conversation, are you?
     
  21. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    If you could stop making up ridiculous hypotheticals and stupid thought experiments and instead stick to reality and the way things actually are it would be a lot easier for all of us to "follow the conversation".
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2021
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  22. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    :applause::applause::applause:
     
  23. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is never okay for government to decide for you.
     
  24. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    When government decides they want to stop deciding for us, I will keep my mouth closed.

    The vast majority of "Pro-Choice" people vote for those who believe the government should decide for us... just not when it comes to matters of sexual recreation.

    This idea that the woman should be the one to choose when it comes to matters of life and death is totally asinine and flies in the face of everything else these people believe. What if we were to apply even 10% of the regulations that are on guns or individual financial transactions to abortion?
    Maybe a lot of people in society are just completely ignorant about how many laws and regulations exist on everything. They've obviously never tried to run a business or build a house. There are more regulations on a barrel of oil than there are on an unborn baby.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2021
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  25. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Agreed. Government has no business infringing on second amendment rights, forcing vaccinations, or denying an abortion.
     

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