The Case Against Capitalism

Discussion in 'Economics & Trade' started by DarkSkies, Apr 1, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. DarkSkies

    DarkSkies Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2014
    Messages:
    4,522
    Likes Received:
    581
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The purpose of this thread is to build a case against the capitalist part of our economic system and to compel others to consider thinking about replacing parts or even the whole system. This thread won't focus on the actual alternatives. The following thread will host that content:
    Potential alternatives to the capitalist system

     
  2. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2009
    Messages:
    43,110
    Likes Received:
    459
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Capitalism "died" in 1929 and socialism has been bailing it out ever since. Why not optimize our socialism to merely provide for paying the debts, and providing for the common defense and general welfare of the United States.
     
  3. DarkSkies

    DarkSkies Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2014
    Messages:
    4,522
    Likes Received:
    581
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The idealistic parts of it died, but its predatorial nature is alive and well. It's still the same old system even with the bandaids all over it.
     
  4. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2009
    Messages:
    43,110
    Likes Received:
    459
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Why not optimize our socialism to merely provide for paying the debts, and providing for the common defense and general welfare of the United States.
     
  5. DarkSkies

    DarkSkies Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2014
    Messages:
    4,522
    Likes Received:
    581
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You can't optimize socialism with a capitalist/debt-based economy. The latter system requires wastes; It forever requires someone to be in need. The two systems will always clash due to conflicting interests so for any type of socialism to work, the mechanisms of capitalism would have to be suppressed or removed altogether.
     
  6. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2009
    Messages:
    43,110
    Likes Received:
    459
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    That is what "regulation" is.

    Why not optimize, regulations?
     
  7. DarkSkies

    DarkSkies Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2014
    Messages:
    4,522
    Likes Received:
    581
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I disagree. When I say the "mechanisms of capitalism," I'm not really talking about the effects of capitalism that have to be mitigated through regulation. I'm actually talking about what makes it work. For example:

    The owner and worker classes
    The drive for profits
    The incentive to create consumers out of citizens
    The incentive to drive down costs
    The privatization of vast amounts of land
    The way debt is issued
    etc.​

    Regulation, isn't going to address the fundamental nature of capitalism. At best it can mitigate damage. There would need to be laws outlawing certain practices for any type of suppression of its mechanisms to take place.
     
  8. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2009
    Messages:
    43,110
    Likes Received:
    459
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    True Anarcho-Capitalism doesn't work. Truer forms of socialism, work better.

    I understand what you are saying; but, that still doesn't refute that any form of regulation, is merely socialism and not capitalism.

    Can any more developed economy function, as we currently know it in the US, without socialism.
     
  9. DarkSkies

    DarkSkies Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2014
    Messages:
    4,522
    Likes Received:
    581
    Trophy Points:
    113
    What if I proposed that any form of regulation isn't merely socialism because certain lobbyist are writing many of the laws/regulations?

    Since, for example, insurance companies can influence laws and regulations in such a way that they might as well have passed the laws themselves, these governing rules basically represent corporatocracy and not necessarily any type of social ideals.

    I don't believe so.
     
  10. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2009
    Messages:
    43,110
    Likes Received:
    459
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    The law is Socialism. A public sector is socialism. Any use of Tax monies requires socialism and that social Power to Tax.
     
  11. Empress

    Empress Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2014
    Messages:
    3,142
    Likes Received:
    913
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    The problem with capitalism as we have it is that it's controlled by ethics-poor greed and policy is driven by the benefit for business without consideration for wanted or unwanted changes it may bring to the countries involved. We're at a point where business interests by and large control the political establishment and buy off candidates via large campaign donations. The people as a whole have been marginalized in the process that was supposed to be ours.

    Socialist countries had similar issues; leadership had the most benefits and access, and everyone else was screwed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Socialism is not taxation of business. Socialism is the centralized ownership of the means of production.
     
  12. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2009
    Messages:
    43,110
    Likes Received:
    459
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    You are confusing truer forms of communism, with socialism. Simply using the (other) Peoples' tax monies is a form of socialism, not truer forms of capitalism.
     
  13. unrealist42

    unrealist42 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2011
    Messages:
    3,000
    Likes Received:
    36
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Capitalism per-se is not a bad idea. The gathering together of scarce resources in order to accomplish great endeavours is not necessarily a bad idea.

    The problems began when charters for capitalist enterprises dropped the obligation "to operate in the public good".

    All capitalism needs to bring it back to its original purpose is to reinstitute that obligation.

    If that does not work then the people, through their government should initiate subtle hostile takeover maneuvers like requiring corporations to pay their taxes in shares to be held in a public trust. Over the long term the government could receive enough income as a shareholder to fully fund the government and pay a large enough dividend directly to citizens that there would be no need for welfare or unemployment spending.

    In fact, I believe that this is about the only way for capitalism to survive over the long term. Jobs are being removed from the economy at a ever increasing pace. By 2100 90% of today's jobs will be automated. The ability of people to gain an income from employment is going away. There is a desperate need to find a way to provide people with income going forward. Simply increasing government welfare, and the taxes to pay for it, is not an answer. Giving the people equity is.

    200 years ago there was an argument of resource scarcity because a scarcity of resources actually existed. Today there is enough resources available right now on this planet to provide every single person with everything they need to have a decent life. The only thing that is preventing this is that the meme of money is stuck in the mode of scarcity and accumulation.

    We find ourselves in an absurd situation. Capitalism, which has been the rocket fuel for the advance of civilization is now the one thing that prevents the people of Earth from achieving universal success.
     
  14. Bassman

    Bassman Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2010
    Messages:
    1,876
    Likes Received:
    332
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Sorry, but it's already been tried and failed in the old USSR
     
  15. DarkSkies

    DarkSkies Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2014
    Messages:
    4,522
    Likes Received:
    581
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The law isn't necessarily socialism. It has to have certain characteristics to meet that definition. For example, laws mandating that American citizens be forced to buy expensive private insurance or face a fine because they were written by corporate lobbyist is not socialism. That's actually crony capitalism.

    I disagree with the idea of tax money requiring socialism. All it takes for a government, ruling class, anyone, or anything to collect taxes is enforcement.
     
  16. DarkSkies

    DarkSkies Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2014
    Messages:
    4,522
    Likes Received:
    581
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The ideals of capitalism can only be short-lived because its very nature cheapens and commodifies people and cultures. We have people wondering who should be fit to live once most of the jobs become automated. Somehow people are equating a person's worth on how much they help build some business entity's empire versus working on building for themselves, their communities, and other groups of people.

    Fortunately, people have some good socioeconomic ideas floating around. So with that, I definitely agree with your last point on where capitalism stands currently. I don't believe people should settle for/salvage it at this point. It can go away altogether.
     
  17. DarkSkies

    DarkSkies Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2014
    Messages:
    4,522
    Likes Received:
    581
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The USSR was one combination of ideas. If people see its economy as a failed idea, it shouldn't keep them from pursuing others. Capitalism has failed epically time and time again and has slowed down/undermined progress in human advancements in many areas. Yet it's still used.
     
  18. Bassman

    Bassman Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2010
    Messages:
    1,876
    Likes Received:
    332
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    That's because Capitalism hasn't failed. Except of course for die hard Communists like you.
     
  19. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2009
    Messages:
    43,110
    Likes Received:
    459
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Capitalism has no third party laws, just mutually beneficial social transactions that involve voluntary trade. Any regulation by a public sector is a form of socialism.

    A public sector enforcing anything, is a form of socialism, not capitalism.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Capitalism "died" in 1929. Socialism has been bailing it out ever since.
     
  20. Drago

    Drago Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2008
    Messages:
    1,175
    Likes Received:
    126
    Trophy Points:
    63
    This is a very good post.

    Capitalism has done amazing things and still does amazing things for innovation. We wouldn't be where we are now technology wise without it, but at what expense? The greater good of the public is tossed out the door when it comes to earnings reports on Wall Street. If you want to point a finger, point it at Wall Street. All greater good goes out the door when you have to try and meet your earnings projections or growth projections. Companies buy other innovative companies, sometimes this is good, lots of times its not, but that is the only way a large corporation can grow.

    Capitalism today, is not what it was 100 years ago. Corporations have too much influence over law and legislation to be considered anything other than at least a partner of government. Many companies essentially buy favor and its true. Happens all the time. Just look at your local cable company.

    There is a better system out there and I believe it does involve some aspects of socialism, because the cause of the greater good is long lost to capitalism these days.
     
  21. DarkSkies

    DarkSkies Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2014
    Messages:
    4,522
    Likes Received:
    581
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You're right. Capitalism hasn't failed in exploitation, massive waste, the hoarding and privatization of resources, moral hazards, and escaping all its ideals.

    Moreover, speaking against this type of system doesn't make a person a 'die hard Communist.'
     
  22. Bassman

    Bassman Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2010
    Messages:
    1,876
    Likes Received:
    332
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Sure it does. Anything that uses the force of government on the private sector IS Communism.
     
  23. DarkSkies

    DarkSkies Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2014
    Messages:
    4,522
    Likes Received:
    581
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Certain criteria must be met before before something is called communist. And, this thread is about capitalism, not communism.
     
  24. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2009
    Messages:
    43,110
    Likes Received:
    459
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    It is socialism, not communism. Capitalism involves voluntary and mutually beneficial trade.
     
  25. Bassman

    Bassman Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2010
    Messages:
    1,876
    Likes Received:
    332
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Same old sh!t, different flies.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Sure about that? because you seem to be advocating FOR Communism, Bolshevik.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page