The Case Against Capitalism

Discussion in 'Economics & Trade' started by DarkSkies, Apr 1, 2016.

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  1. dnsmith

    dnsmith New Member

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    Correct! BxxxSxxx flows up hill leaving the guy at the bottom still at the bottom.

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    Correct! BxxxSxxx flows up hill leaving the guy at the bottom still at the bottom.

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    Non comprehensible! Try coherent English to better pass on your opinion.
     
  2. dnsmith

    dnsmith New Member

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    Everyone of those negatives are multiplied by Socialism. Socialism creates little wealth and what little there is, goes mostly to the leader while labor is nothing but economic slaves. Only capitalism produces the wealth to help those that need help and socialism leaves even more people destitute. Capital has NOTHING TO DO WITH IMPERIALISM. That is hoakum theory. Capitalist societies have a much higher % of private ownership than any other system. Wars have nothing to do with Capitalism. They are usually fought because of war hungry politicians regardless of the economic system. In socialism all business cycles are depressed. Depression is a forever cycle with socialism. Socialist countries produce more environmental pollution than Capitalist countries (example: China and Russia). All countries produce waste without regard to the system. Growth depends on consumers, making some industries more profitable no matter what economic system is in place. Social insecurity is much more rampant in socialism. the immobility part is pure bunk. Choice permeates all systems, and without choice the few products on the market tend to be unsatisfying. I do agree about income inequality. But our relative poor are better off than the average person in a socialist economic system. Proper regulation will solve most of the problems, socialism solves none.

    I don't know where you got that ridiculous chart, but it is the most prepostures propaganda I have see in a long time.
     
  3. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Donor

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    The chart is also preposterous. :smile: But I completely agree. And the chart is a manifestation of a complete ignorance (or rewrite) of history. Slows human progress ?? Are you kidding me ?? (Stalin actually used capitalism in his space project which was very successful. Socialism was used in his agriculture program which resulted in death by starvation of millions of Soviet citizens). Where does stuff like that chart come from ?? Unbelievable.
     
  4. DarkSkies

    DarkSkies Well-Known Member

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    It's going to be very difficult for you to prove that Socialism exacerbates the problems listed under Capitalism. For example, socialism wouldn't be able to produce the levels of pollution and waste as capitalism. This is because a major facet of capitalism is a consumerism-materialism while socialism isn't. Your example of China and Russia as being more environmentally pollutive is a non-starter. It wasn't until both countries adopted forms of capitalism that anyone speaks of pollution from these countries. I'll yield to the idea that environmental degradation took place when Russia was industrializing though. Still, I don't see how the issues we see under capitalism would be more exaggerated under socialism just by the nature of the systems.

    The claim that socialism creating little wealth isn't true. German socialism after the first world war is a great example of socialism not only generating wealth, but providing citizens with a superb quality of living. Capitalism produces wealth for the owners of capital. No one else. In the US people work/ed for slave wages. It wasn't until they began forming unions and demanding more from their employers that they stopped scrounging for money. It is usually a unified labor force or government intervention that forces capitalist to pay fair enough wages that allows wealth to generate among the poor and middle classes.

    Capitalism has nothing to do with imperialism? Of course it does. Capitalism's profit motive and insatiable need to produce for those profits forever has it needing resources and markets. So, capitalists are always in other regions setting up little infrastructure projects to extract or exploit those resources. Due to any conflicts that may hinder access to these resources, little wars or campaigns ensue. The symptom of the relationship between imperialism and capitalism is the perpetual state of war.

    It is fair and correct to say that capitalist societies have a much higher % of private ownership than any other system, but that really doesn't say much imho. Are a handful of people owning a whole swath of property while the vast majority are crammed into tight spaces or suburbs, for example?

    Lastly, is it really possible to claim that depression is a forever cycle with socialism? I mean everytime a country tries another system without capitalism in it, this country goes all Red Scare.

    BTW, that chart is mine. I don't see how it's any more propaganda than the pro-capitalist clich├ęs I read throughout the thread.
     
  5. DarkSkies

    DarkSkies Well-Known Member

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    You wish to claim that the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics used capitalism to make the space project successful? Their space program was initiated to show the strength of socialism/communism vs capitalism. Talk about rewriting history :laughing:.

    [​IMG]

    Regarding the agricultural program that supposedly killed millions, this is a drop in the bucket compared to how many capitalism has killed and no one says anything about that.

    BTW, the chart is mine. Now that I think about it, I should have added some commentary about death toll to it.
     
  6. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    Where are you getting your propaganda and rhetoric from under our form of capitalism? Capital needs to work, not Persons. It Only takes money to make money. Thus, your entire premise seems, just plain wrong, dear.
     
  7. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    It has to be read in context, master Smith. Simply resorting to special pleading, but for illustration purposes, is usually considered a fallacy. But, you knew that already.

    A fifteen dollar an hour wage competes with social services favorably. Competition is a natural part of capitalism. Why such lack of Faith, in Capitalism?
     
  8. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Donor

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    That's exactly right. Competition and rewards for success were implemented by the Soviets resulting in their space program success. That's capitalism 101. It is completely ironic that the success of the Soviet space program used capitalism rather than command and control. And the ultimate proof of the failure of command and control socialism is the demise of the Soviet Union.

    Capitalism has killed hundreds of millions ?? How so ?? No one says anything about that because it is completely untrue. I'd like to see the death toll statistics. That chart is something that would be published in one of Zinn's revisionist history books.
     
  9. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    ...I have learned how to use, not Only a hammer, but also a sickle, due to the insistence of the Right, on a work ethic from the Age of Iron.
     
  10. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    I agree, if socialism is so good why did the Soviet Union collapse instead of the U.S.A.?

    The Trabant automobile is a good example of socialist economics.

    Capitalism kills? I'm anxiously awaiting the spin on that one.
     
  11. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    Just stating the facts. Can you make any rational sense of your claim 'Capital needs to work, not Persons'?

    While it's true that investing your money wisely allows it to grow, what you invest in has to do something productive with the money which requires labour of persons.

    If you're unwilling to accept facts as they exist, you're left with nothing but denialism as a means of response making continued conversation nothing more than a waste of time.

    Our 'form' of capitalism?
     
  12. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    it is a matter of degree of socialism. We have a mixed-market economy. It has to be the right balance. Our Founding Fathers got it right the first time, when they enumerated Only sufficient socialism, to pay the debts, and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States.

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    Have you never heard of the expression, it takes money, to make money?
     
  13. DarkSkies

    DarkSkies Well-Known Member

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    You are trying to give capitalism credit for USSR's space program? Can't do that. The USSR goverment itself held the competition between design groups. Much of the program benefited from captured German scientists. It was not market or free competition at all. No capitalist principle was involved in the program.

    Capitalism has an enormous body count. The slave trade alone dwarfs the number of people killed under another modern economic system with over 100 million killed and enslaved. If you want recent examples, right after the Chinese adopted their form of capitalism, the pollution started to kill 100s of thousands to now over a million people a year. We can even compare famines between the systems. The overall point is that an attempt to hold body counts against socialism/communism systems will only be met with counters of capitalism's body count.
     
  14. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    The US has the Best form of Socialism in the Entire World. Even the right complains our poor in the US are not really poor enough by True Capital standards and should be denied and disparaged steak and lobster on their EBT cards.
     
  15. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    I agree, our Founding Fathers got it right the first time, but then in 1913... things changed, and have increasingly worsened ever since.



    Yes, and labour is the first step in acquiring money.
     
  16. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    why do you claim that. isn't school the first step?
     
  17. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    Only if you know of a school that pays you to attend, and I know a number of people who never attended school yet earn more than the minimum wage, and still others who didn't finish high school or only finished high school who make more than some friends who finished college.
     
  18. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    That doesn't happen very consistently or there would be no need for schools. Isn't preparation important to be effective in any endeavor?
     
  19. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Donor

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    I can because it is the truth. You admitted as much in your response. Competition is the basis for capitalism. The resources of the USSR were directed toward the winning space designs. Soviet agriculture however was completely directed by the 5 year plans coming out of command & control Soviet central planning.

    Your attribution of the number of people killed under capitalism is ridiculous and comes right out of Zinn. Until recently slavery was the norm in the world. Capitalism was originated by Adam Smith in the mid 1700's. Capitalism had nothing to do with slavery. China had accepted loss of life to air pollution in the near term as a result of increasing the standard of living which saved many more lives. They are now cleaning the atmosphere up because of the wealth created by capitalism and pressure from the Chinese citizens who have benefited by this increase in life quality. To equate this with the millions who died under Mao's Red Chinese control and command economic system is ludicrous.
     
  20. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    Socialism has empty cities, laying around today. Socialism also provides the least wealthy with steak and lobster on their EBT cards.

    What is capitalism doing for us?
     
  21. DarkSkies

    DarkSkies Well-Known Member

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    If I'm not mistaken, you are making an inductive fallacy regarding competition. Just because the USSR hosted a competition--an activity that occurs under many systems including capitalism, to meet its goals does not make their space program a capitalist feat. To reiterate, competition is not something that occurs exclusively in capitalist systems. It occurs under socialism/communism and even traditional systems too. The difference is that under capitalism those who win profit whereas under socialism everyone involved benefits. The USSR space program is a testament for socialism/communism, not capitalism.

    Capitalism long predates Adam Smith. Yeah he's known as the "Father of Capitalism," but he was an economic theorist and an advocate of the "free-market" form of capitalism. The origins of capitalism began around the 13th and 16th centuries when the profit and investment ideas emerged.

    Yes, capitalism had everything to do with slavery. I can outline how if necessary.

    The quality of life is trashed in China. Even the wealthy are clamoring to get out. The overall point of bringing up the pollution was to highlight how deaths that occurred under socialism and communism are dwarfed by those that occur under capitalism.
     
  22. dnsmith

    dnsmith New Member

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    One need not go to school to dig a ditch. I do agree that the minimum wage should be increased. Walmart has raised their pay for part timers to $!0 an hour and full timers to over $13 an hour.
     
  23. dnsmith

    dnsmith New Member

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    Just some more hog wash. Both communism and socialism are the two worse economic systems ever thought of. Neither gives more wealth to more people than capitalism. The rest of your socialist/communist propaganda is not worth taking my time to answer, other than to say, HOGWASH.

    So far your comments and outlines prove nothing contrary about capitalism. The USSR space program is just one more example in which the Soviets took money from the hungry and poor to use to congratulate themselves over their science, I wonder how many people starved over that blunder.

    Your suggestion that under socialism everyone shares in the wealth si theoretical junk. Sure all people were equal economically, EQUALLY POOR. There has never been a successful state socialism/communism which succeeded. One of the major reasons for that is the tendency for people who produce are not allowed to leave, so they tend to reduce their production to equal the low productive people, and all share their lack of wealth while the leaders get rich, IE economic slavery. Civilized countries dropped slavery in the 19th century while the socialist/communist countries continued it almost to the 21st century.
     
  24. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Donor

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    There is no fallacy. The Soviet space program was making insufficient progress under the command and control model. Multiple teams were set up to compete for the best design/product with a reward to the winner. That is the essence of capitalism and indicates that even the Soviet Union knew what system would result in the greatest progess and best product. In agriculture it was entirely different. The Soviets went with one plan based on Lysenkoism. That was of course incorrect and resulted in millions of deaths by starvation.

    Adam Smith is responsible for the dramatic increase in the rate of the standard of living as free market capitalism was adopted throughout the world. Almost all countries have abandoned command & control and adopted capitalism as their economic system. Competition and the optimum allocation of resources based on profitability are the corner stones of capitalism.

    Slavery has nothing to do with capitalism. It existed well before Adam Smith and exists today in limited areas. Outline away.

    You are claiming that the standard of living in China is going downhill since Deng Xiaoping introduced capitalism after Mao's economic disaster ?? Deng recognized the benefits of capitalism and said 'I can distribute poverty or wealth' and he had seen the poverty and death resulting from command & control under Mao. To argue that pollution has resulted in more deaths than lives saved by the standard of living improvements of capitalism is ridiculous. What's more lethal - smog or lack of food ?? And what is the basis for the claim that wealth Chinese are clamoring to get out because of pollution ?? They may want to leave for political reasons but the wealthy are doing very well economically and can afford to live in unpolluted areas. Bejing is not the norm of Chinese air quality.
     
  25. dnsmith

    dnsmith New Member

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    In fact, for every job sent overseas, a 1.72 percent increase in employment occurs in the United States, say the three economists who examined 58 U.S. manufacturing industries from 2000 to 2007.

    In a finding that could draw surprise (and skepticism) from immigration opponents, the study concluded that every 1 percent increase in immigrant jobs boosted aggregate employment for American-born workers by 3.9 percent.

    ISSN 2042-2695
    CEP Discussion Paper No 1147 - London School of Economics
    May 2012
     
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