The Case Against Capitalism

Discussion in 'Economics & Trade' started by DarkSkies, Apr 1, 2016.

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  1. dnsmith

    dnsmith New Member

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    Capitalism is alive and doing very well while every socialist country only gives the leaders any kind of wealth. State socialism has never worked and never will work as all it does is make economic slaves of the workers. I guess you would want that Daniel, hoping you could be one of the leaders to get wealth.
     
  2. dnsmith

    dnsmith New Member

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    There has never been a successful socialist experiment, not ever. There have been many successful social programs, but then social programs are NOT SOCIALISM.
    Alaska is not a socialist state. The Alaskan government does not control production, distribution or prices, all of which are the essential part of socialism. That the state has chosen to distribute oil profits with the citizens from state owned land cannot be considered socialism by any means. In addition, there is no guarantee that everyone gets a living of significant amount. My daughter and her husband received the pittance when they were residing in Alaska. It has been cut back even more of late. You need to get your information straight instead of listening to propaganda that makes socialism good for the people because IT IS NOT.[[/quote]quote]

    Why can't I use Germany as an example of socialism? Let's stick to economics and leave Godwin's Law alone. We've come so far already in the discussion.[/QUOTE]Godwin's law has nothing to do with this thread. But one thing is sure, FASCISM WAS SOCIALISM, WHETHER YOU WANT TO INVOLVE HITLER OR THE NAZIS or not. It was a command economy coupled with a nationalist dictator (dictator needed for all attempts of socialism) and it failed drastically in that the government used state money to build a war machine and relied on slave labor to do part of that building.
    Of course they leave, all high achievers leave when possible. Socialism lives off of the high achievers, and the smart ones send their money out of the socialist regime. In socialist China many were executed for that very reason.

    BY THE WAY, YOU HAVE NOT YET POSTED ANY PROOF ABOUT ANY SUCCESSES OF SOCIALISM.
     
  3. dnsmith

    dnsmith New Member

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    He can't! Because there is no such proof. The case against capitalism when properly regulated will never win, because it is simply not factual.
     
  4. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    Daniel doesn't seem to recognize the difference between 'soaking' and 'drowning'.
     
  5. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    that only happens when socialism can merely capitalism, for all of its worth. Mogadishu was an example of an AnCap, for a little while.
     
  6. Ted

    Ted Banned

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    yes exactly what Stalin and Mao thought too!!
     
  7. DarkSkies

    DarkSkies Well-Known Member

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    "They were completely ineffective..."

    There were some failures, but some major successes. Here's some great things that came out of the New Deal:
    Civilian Conservation Corps - Work relief program for many Americans
    Federal Housing Administration - Created to deal with housing crisis
    Home Owner's Loan Corp - Helped assist in refinancing homes
    The NIRA - (I think this is the one you are referring to when you say NRA) - Was created to bring business and working class Americans together. It wasn't a disaster, it was just ruled unconstitutional.
    Social Security Act - Designed to fight rampant poverty among senior citizens
    Works Progress Admin - Major works program that helped build roads, buildings, and other projects

    These programs were designed to fight the Depression and they did up until wartime, when command economics would took over the economy. Before the programs, unemployment was around 25%.

    "Alaska is no such example of socialism."

    Alaska is a superb example of socialism. The resource in which the citizens get a piece of the income is state owned, not privately owned :nod:. Check out the Alaska Permanent Fund.

    "If you want to use Nazi Germany as a shining example..."

    No, I don't want to restrict myself. I don't see a problem with using the socialist policies in Germany including those enacted by the NSDAP. I also don't think it fair to compare a war torn East Germany to West Germany either. The socialist parties enacted in Germany transformed it from an abject situation to a far better economic situation. This can't be denied.

    "My son spent 6 weeks in Heyuan...""

    I can't dispute this. What I can counter with however is the fact that the majority of China's air is pretty unbreathable. A cherry-picked location with great air isn't enough to dispute my arguments.

    more than 80 percent of Chinese people are regularly exposed to pollution that far exceeds levels deemed safe by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.
    -http://www.cnbc.com/2015/08/18/china-air-pollution-far-worse-than-thought-study.html
     
  8. DarkSkies

    DarkSkies Well-Known Member

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    Alaska is a socialist state. Production is state owned, not private owned. Check out the Alaska Permanent Fund. The state owns the means of production and the citizens receive an income from it. There is nothing capitalist about what I just described. Alaska is a socialist Republican state. Cope.

    Speaking of Hitler, damn I wanted to avoid mentioning is name, but the socialist policies and the nationalization of production worked. These things can't be denied. People must accept the fact that the capitalist and the reparations were killing the economy. The 5-year plans and all those things helped bring life back into the place.

    I've stated two very successful instances of socialism. You don't want to accept them because capitalist apologist don't like competition. What will happen if the US did not proceed with its domino theory or join WWII? What would happen is that other countries would see socialism and maybe even communism as viable economic systems. And that's why those countries espousing those economies were attacked.
     
  9. DarkSkies

    DarkSkies Well-Known Member

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    Hold on ...

    I started a listing here: http://www.politicalforum.com/economics-trade/463490-death-capitalism.html

    I'll contribute more to it as I find citations for the counts.
     
  10. Ted

    Ted Banned

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  11. DarkSkies

    DarkSkies Well-Known Member

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    Did you even scan the thread? Drone strikes aren't even listed in it.
     
  12. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    the space race is over and the Chinese are beating us at supercomputing. why not come on down to our current affairs and millennium.
     
  13. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Donor

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    That's ridiculous. Alaska does not own the oil companies. Alaska has nothing to do with socialism.

    And again the NAZI's are an example of the success of socialism ??

    Do you really believe that if the Nazi's had prevailed in WWII that the world would have seen the success of socialism and converted to it. I have to say that is delusional and goes against everything in the recent global economic history timeline. Every command/control economy in the world has failed and been converted to capitalism. There is no disputing the historical record.
     
  14. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Donor

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  15. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Donor

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    The umemployment rate in the 30's never was below 15%. And after reaching that minimum they spiked back up to ~ 18%. Where is the success ?? FDR so screwed up the economy with Soviet style command/control that gov hand out programs were necessary - and they were funded by transfers from the profits of successful (as much as they could be) businesses. The National Recovery Administration and the Agricultural Adjustment Administration were disastrous economic programs. Social security had no effect on the economy during the Great Depression and neither did the FHA. The problems were monetary policy, trade isolationism, and command/control policies.

    Again with the claim that the state of Alaska is a socialist state ?? What is that based on ?? The state of Alaska does not own or control the oil companies. The collect taxes on the profits of the oil companies. That is not controlling them.

    How can Nazi Germany be used as a shining example of anything ??

    That study is inconclusive as is stated in the link. The 2.5 model is based on data which the EPA will not release and cannot be replicated in the real world. Dr. Muller can conclude whatever he wants but it is the Chinese gov and the Chinese people which make the decisions. And since the actual government which make these decisions is single party totalitarian the people actually do not have much input. But as the standard of living improves resulting in a large reduction in poverty and death by starvation the pressure on the Chinese gov to improve air quality increases and the Chinese gov has been acting to reduce pollution. Finally the EPA models do not recognize the concept of threshold tolerance. They repeatedly use ratios to compute mortality which is bogus.
     
  16. DarkSkies

    DarkSkies Well-Known Member

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    re Alaska

    When Alaska won their statehood, the Alaskans also won their ability to own their own natural resources.
    Alaska Statehood Act of 1958 (Section 6i)
    "mineral lands so granted shall be subject to and contain reservation to the State of all the minerals in the lands so sold...contrary to the provisions of this section, (they) shall be forfeited to the United States."​

    Here is a copy of the whole act. You can find this section (on page 4?)
    -https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/STATUTE-72/pdf/STATUTE-72-Pg339.pdf

    Citizens get paid dividends from the proceeds of their natural resources. Their government employs most of the people. It is very much a socialist state. The citizens literally refer to themselves as the "Owner State" because they, as a collective, own their resources and share in the proceeds from the use of these. Their resources aren't privatized.


    re National Socialism Success in Germany

    Yes I believe National Socialism in Germany was successful. When people have a stake in something, they are more likely to be invested in its success. So, focusing solely on the economics and not the politics of what took place in Germany, the Great Depression was pretty rough on Germany (~33% unemployment). So work programs to establish full employment were implemented. Unemployment got reduced by 40% in a year. Private property rights were conditional upon the economic mode of use in that it had to conform to national interest. Economic state control was increased even though privatization was allowed. Free competition and free markets diminished.

    Much economic progress was generated by National Socialist programs. So yeah, I'd say socialism was successful. If Germany was successful, socialism and maybe even communism would have been seen as viable alternatives to capitalism. Of course other countries would adopt the same economic policies because people want to emulate success. This is why the U.S. made it a point to knock out communist countries like Vietnam (domino theory).
     
  17. DarkSkies

    DarkSkies Well-Known Member

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    That's basically the same thing people do when they ascribe famine, something that often occurs, to socialism/communism. That listing should cancel out the ridiculous claims of socialism/communism starving out a bazillion gazillion people.
     
  18. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Donor

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    All states and the federal gov own land and the mineral rights. That does not mean that those states/nations are examples of socialism. And the fact that the gov employs people in those states/nations also does not mean that that those states/nations are examples of socialism. The state of Alaska which is very lightly populated collects tax revenues from the oil companies and gives a refundable tax credit to its citizens. And that again does not mean that the state of Alaska is an example of command/control socialism.

    There is nothing about Nazi Germany that can in any way be considered successful. The reason that the US invaded Vietnam was the perceived threat of the spread of communism and the death & destruction which this would entail plus the threat to existing democratic nations. When we left Vietnam (and many neighboring countries) the gov there instituted command/control which resulted in the deaths of millions of people in the region. After years of oppression and economic failure Vietnam (like China) implemented capitalism with great economic success.

    To claim that the state of Alaska and Nazi Germany are examples of the success of a command/control socialism economics is defies explanation.

    - - - Updated - - -

    That's again ridiculous. It was the command/control policies of the communistic and socialistic nations and the taking of crops to fund other five year plan objectives that resulted on the widespread starvation and millions of deaths in those nations.
     
  19. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    nothing but propaganda and rhetoric? Capitalism died in 1929 for everybody. Socialism is what we have, not real capitalism, or the right would not be complaining about steak and lobster privileges for the poor on their EBT cards.
     
  20. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    dude, no one disputes that it was the outright communism of our wartime economy, that ended the Great Depression.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The Dutch have been using computer control for their flood control systems. No human decision making necessary.
     
  21. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    No, it isn't. We have our wars on the abstractions of (fill in the blank). That is state capitalism and why we have so many problems: a warfare-State economy instead of what our Founding Fathers told us to do, a welfare-state economy.
     
  22. dnsmith

    dnsmith New Member

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    You are a big boy, you can tell us on this thread. But when you do, make darn sure there is actual proof. We can categorically many millions killed by socialism, plus the millions more who have died of starvation. You have yet to prove even ONE death caused by capitalism. BTW, some people have killed people, through negligence, by intent, BUT THE ECONOMIC SYSTEM IS NOT THE CAUSE.
     
  23. dnsmith

    dnsmith New Member

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    Total NONSENSE Daniel. Capitalism has not caused wars. That is the result of bad politics. Are you even aware that the Presidents of the US who were in office when the wars started were mostly left wingers?
    Roosevelt WWII
    Truman Korea
    JFK Vietnam
    Bush Iraq/Afghanistan
    Obama ISIS

    Since when have you become a fan of the founders? Your opinions vary from them in almost every comment you have ever made.
     
  24. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    "That is state capitalism and why we have so many problems" Poor/excessive Regulations?

    "what our Founding Fathers told us to do.....a welfare-state economy???."
     
  25. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    The socialism of State Capitalism, took us to the Moon and back, and gave us our "wars on crime, drugs, poverty, and terror".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Sure; why do we have so much warfare-State spending when our Founding Fathers enumerated only sufficient socialism, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; they did not specifically enumerate, the general warfare.
     
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