The concept of hell is pagan

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Wolverine, Sep 29, 2011.

  1. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2006
    Messages:
    16,105
    Likes Received:
    233
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The following is a thread on my friends FaceBook page. Very interesting. I refer to myself as Wolvy, my friend as Blynder (our PSN usernames), and the Christian as Chris. I am going to omit quite a bit of the conversation, much of it has little relevance to the purpose of the thread. His reply is the last bit of the conversation and is bolded for clarity.

    Keep in mind my friend studied Christianity in college and through that study begin to doubt. He knows far more about Christianity then mos,t and certainly understands the specifics better than myself. I'll see if he would be willing to join PF and contribute to the thread.

    Start of thread:
    Blynder:
    Chris:
    Blynder:
    Chris:
    Wolvy:
    Blynder:
    Thoughts?
     
  2. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2009
    Messages:
    28,860
    Likes Received:
    11,010
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The purpose of Hell is to define a punishment for those who do not lead a moral life. Religion, after all, has a primary purpose of defining behavior that will result in societal harmony. Most people need a motivation to do things aimed at the common good. I think there has been potential punishment in every religion ever devised by man.
     
  3. BuckNaked

    BuckNaked New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2005
    Messages:
    12,335
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    0
    All religions evolved from paganism. The son of God, virgin birth, rises on the third day, Christmas, Easter, etc... etc... all can be found in Pagan religions long before Christianity even existed.
     
    Lindis likes this.
  4. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2006
    Messages:
    16,105
    Likes Received:
    233
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I realize that, the point of the thread is to point to something that is embraced by Christians as being essentially non-existent in the Christian faith. Hell is not not what most of them believe it to be.
     
  5. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Messages:
    27,731
    Likes Received:
    62
    Trophy Points:
    48
    What precisely is it that "Christians" embrace "as being essentially non-existent in the Christian faith"? You not being a Christian would seem to preclude you from ACTUALLY knowing what Christians embrace.
     
    Jolly Penguin likes this.
  6. Blue Water Nerd

    Blue Water Nerd New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I agree there is punishment, judgement in every religion, that's not the point being addressed here. What's being addressed is that the concept of Hell, as we know it today, does not exist in the Bible or early church teachings.

    The argument rather or not the concept of Hell is effective in the modern church or in keeping people moral should be addressed separately. It's an entirely different argument.
     
  7. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2006
    Messages:
    16,105
    Likes Received:
    233
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Being that you are predictability ignoring the purpose of the thread, I am wondering why you even replied.

    Stick to the OP.
     
  8. Blue Water Nerd

    Blue Water Nerd New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I believe he's referring to the concept of Hell, an eternal life of pain and punishment. What's being proposed is that Hell as it's known today was not taken from the Bible or early church teachings, yet has been embraced as reality, in the modern church.
     
  9. BuckNaked

    BuckNaked New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2005
    Messages:
    12,335
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    0

    There are many things I find interesting about religion, irrational thinking is high on the list.
     
    Jolly Penguin likes this.
  10. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Messages:
    27,731
    Likes Received:
    62
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Your request in the OP was "Thoughts?"

    So my 'thoughts' was of curiosity expressed in the question which I displayed in my post.

    In your post (presumably a response to another posters input) you commented with this:
    :

    To which I responded with my question...

    In essence, I am responding to the OP, unless of course you are admitting that the post of yours to which I responded also was not responsive to the OP.

    Ignoring my question is in essence Ignoring the OP because I did respond to subject matter regarding the OP.
     
  11. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2006
    Messages:
    16,105
    Likes Received:
    233
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Whether or not I am a Christian is irrelevant.

    Been there, was taught on baptist curriculum, and here I am today. I have a very good idea what Christians believe. I have already explained this to you more than once, and has little bearing on the topic of this thread. The topic is to receive input from others on my friends thoughts. Not for you to predictably derail the thread to avoid the topic. If you want to talk about my being a former Christian, start a new thread.


    My friend will take control of this thread, his posts are currently waiting approval.
     
  12. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Messages:
    27,731
    Likes Received:
    62
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Then explain why your friend does not provide any empirical evidence to support his opinions?
    He/She offers a good line of talk, but provides no evidence. Even his closing line points to the FACT that what he/she has stated is nothing more than Personal opinion ("Personally I think....").
     
  13. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2006
    Messages:
    16,105
    Likes Received:
    233
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Personal opinion? No where does he state that it is fact. This is obvious.

    Comment on his opinion.
     
  14. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Messages:
    27,731
    Likes Received:
    62
    Trophy Points:
    48
    I did comment on his opinion. It is totally lacking in supporting empirical evidence.
     
  15. Akhlut

    Akhlut Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2008
    Messages:
    1,805
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Old Zoroastrianism (as in, the Zoroastrianism believed by the Persians during the Babylonian Captivity of the Jews) had beliefs in Hell for the wicked (http://www.hell-on-line.org/AboutZOR.html).

    Zoroastrianism also believed in the coming birth of a worldwide savior (the Saoshyants), the end of the world through an apocalyptic, fiery destruction of evil, and the ascendancy of the good to paradise. All of this about 500+ years before the birth of Yeshua bar Yusuf, the purported son of God.
     
  16. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2009
    Messages:
    28,860
    Likes Received:
    11,010
    Trophy Points:
    113

    How do you know? Have you been there?
     
  17. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Messages:
    27,731
    Likes Received:
    62
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Hell is the feeling of despair that is suffered by Numerologists (scientists) after they have realized that all of their numerological mutations cannot give a clue as to what is the nature of God.
     
  18. Daggdag

    Daggdag Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2010
    Messages:
    15,668
    Likes Received:
    1,953
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Hell itself was taken from the Norse, both in name and concept. The norse goddess of Tortune, named Hell, has a domain of fire, where she tortures her victims.

    Christians told the Norse that if they did not follow Jesus they would be sent to a place called Hell,where they would be tortured forever to frighten the Norse into converting to Christianity.
     
    Jolly Penguin likes this.
  19. kilgram

    kilgram New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    9,179
    Likes Received:
    90
    Trophy Points:
    0
    We are in the forum in religion.

    Empirical evidence for the science. Religion is like a freak discussion about the Lord of the Rings, and discussing who was really Tom Bombadil.

    There are no evidence in any, so anyone can give his opinion without problems.
     
  20. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Messages:
    27,731
    Likes Received:
    62
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Then it would be safe for all Theists to eliminate your name from any hypothetical list of persons who demand 'proof of God'? In fact, based on that form of logic that you are using, it would be equally appropriate for all Theists to respond to such a demand/request for 'proof of God' as you did in your response to my comment recognizing that the poster did not provide any empirical evidence:

    In example:

    non-theist speaking: "do you have any proof that God exists?" or "Where is your proof of the existence of God?"

    Theistic response would be appropriately stated as:

    "We are in the forum on religion.

    Empirical evidence is for the sciences."

    Thank you for that blanket response to be given when a demand for empirical evidence of the existence of God is concerned.
     
  21. Akhlut

    Akhlut Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2008
    Messages:
    1,805
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    38
    The Avestas disagree on that. Give up your bastardized religion, based on thievery of Judaism from pure Zoroastrianism! Give up Yeshua and YHWH for Zarathushtra and Ahura Mazda! Truly, YHWH was only a pagan idol, a simple thunder god like Ba'al, originally married to Asherah. Judaism is simply the brother to the old myths of the Canaanites and other Semitic peoples dressed up in the clothing of true monotheism, as envisioned and delivered by Zarathusthra to the Medeans in 1500 BCE, well before the supposed Yeshua walked and gave sermons that were already ancient when he trod the earth. Truly, let go of your stupid book, written by backwards and degenerate thieves and follow the one true god, the only god, the only fount of goodness and truth in the universe: Ahura Mazda.

    Also, Ahura Mazda is a lot more chilled out than that YHWH (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*). No stupid condemnations based on shellfish or cotton/wool blends.
     
  22. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Messages:
    27,731
    Likes Received:
    62
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Are you making demands or are you begging and pleading?

    Where is the empirical evidence?



    Where is the empirical evidence?


    You are speaking of the God of Abraham, correct? LOL. Otherwise, where is the empirical evidence?

    Do I detect a note of prejudicial ideologies?
     
  23. lizarddust

    lizarddust Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2010
    Messages:
    10,350
    Likes Received:
    106
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Not really. Paganism is a blanket term.

    The term Pagan comes from the Roman "paganus",,,, meaning rural dweller.

    But yes,, many christian celebrations have roots within ancient religions.
     
  24. kilgram

    kilgram New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    9,179
    Likes Received:
    90
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I wanted to redirect the discussion to a more philosophical aspect.

    If people would say only I believe that. And not saying is: The truth, would not be necessary to say evidence.

    If you're giving an opinion, and not as a truth, you don't need to give evidence of it. Is a exchange of opinions.
     
  25. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Messages:
    27,731
    Likes Received:
    62
    Trophy Points:
    48

    You also need to pay more attention to your grammar when attempting to express ideas of a philosophical nature. In example:

    Your first sentence above is as near perfect as can be expected from anyone attending this type of forum.

    Now your next two sentences are a little bit different. Syntax is a bit skewed.

    "If people would say only I believe that." Small problem only with the placement of the two terms "say" and "only" when following after the word 'would'. Of course that is just my personal preference on that 'small' issue.

    "And not saying is: The truth, would not be necessary to say evidence."
    That sentence makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It can be easily misconstrued so as to be taken in many different meanings. Your form in that sentence, conveys to me the idea of someone who is struggling with a thought and a means of expressing that thought.

    Your last two sentences are OK, and are pretty easy to apprehend the idea of what you are attempting to say.

    Now here is the real problem. In all that you stated above, you still did not convey anything more than your opinion. Your opinion is not supported with any kind of empirical evidence, and as an opinion it is not worth a hoot. It is not any better than the opinion of a 1st grader or even a college graduate.... still just opinions.

    So, with all of your admonishing of me with regard to others opinions, you have only supported my claim, that without the empirical evidence that is needed to support a claim (even the claim contained in an opinion), the expression of that opinion is worthless.
     

Share This Page