The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice. Is Christianity a moral creed?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Greatest I am, Jan 2, 2019.

  1. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice. Is Christianity a moral creed?

    I find Christianity immoral for substitutionary atonement as well as many others of their moral tenets.

    Without the blood sacrifice of Jesus, Christianity fails as a salvific religion.

    We could thump all day with passages that both support blood sacrifice as well as quote the many passages against it as shown with both types of quotes in this link.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoHP-f-_F9U

    Recognizing that there are many contradictory passages in scriptures, let’s ignore them all and just look at the morality of substitutionary atonement.

    Scriptures tell us that to perfect our wisdom, we must get out of the Christian theology. I think that those passages are asking us to confirm our thinking with analogies that do not include Christian dogma.

    With that in mind, I offer an analogy for discussion.

    Scriptures say we are all children of God.

    Imagine you have two children. One of your children does something wrong – say it curses, or throws a temper tantrum, or something like that. In fact, say it does this on a regular basis, and you continually forgive your child, but it never seems to change.

    Now suppose one day you’ve had enough, you need to do something different. You still wish to forgive your child, but nothing has worked. Do you go to your second child, your good child, and punish it to atone for the sins of the first?

    In fact, if you ever saw a parent on the street punish one of their children for the actions of their other child, how would you react? Would you support their decision, or would you be offended?

    Interestingly, some historical royal families would beat their slaves when their own children did wrong – you should not, after all, ever beat a prince. The question is: what kind of lesson does that teach the child who actually did the harm? Does it teach them to be a better person, to stop doing harm, or does it teach them both that they won't themselves be punished, and also that punishing other people is normal? I know that's not a lesson I would want to teach my children, and I suspect it's not a lesson most Christians would want to teach theirs. So why does God?

    For me, that’s at least one significant reason I find Jesus’ atonement of our sin to be morally repugnant – of course, that’s assuming Jesus ever existed; that original sin actually exists; that God actually exists; etc.

    Do you agree that having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. Do you agree that to abdicate personal responsibility or use a scapegoat is immoral?

    If not, please show how it is morally and legally good to punish the innocent instead of the guilty, bearing in mind that all legal systems think that punishing the guilty is what is justice.

    Regards
    DL
     
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  2. Wildjoker5

    Wildjoker5 Well-Known Member

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    so you think that one man dying for the sins of others is the same as say the Mayan human sacrifices? The point being that Jesus was the perfect man who had no sin was put to death is the reason which His death is so important. There is no teachings out there to go sacrifice more people as those who did practice that type of tradition. There is the sacrifice of your labor in the form of tithing. But I guess its the same nonsense as those who claim Christianity promotes cannibalism.
     
  3. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Ya know, I have always wondered and puzzled over, how the death of God's Son, a human body where God resided, could take care of sin, for all of humanity? What are the mechanics involved? I cannot imagine any that would be within the realm of credibility.

    Of course the jews had this idea of animal sacrifice to God, which would roll their sin forward, and these sacrifices of course had to be repeated into perpetuity. And God liked the sweet smell of burning animal flesh, that he got a whiff of at the burnt offerings...made to Him. All of this seems rather like some fairy tale to the modern mind. But of course, it could be that such scripture is not to be taken literally, but by some other means of a literary instrument. I am open to that.

    There was this idea with some cultures that their god or gods had to be given sacrifices. To appease the gods, to get things like enough rain on crops, so the group would not starve and so on.
    The Jews sacrificed animals to their God, at his direction, supposedly. And yet you can read where one of the old Prophets told the Jews that God never wanted animal sacrifices, that he wanted their hearts, or something like that.

    So you find incoherence, or perhaps God never wanted sacrifices and some priest or religious leader among the jews just invented it, this idea of sacrifice, in the same way that the religious authority of the aztecs invented sacrificing humans, loads of them, in order to wheedle things out from their gods. Yes, it is within the realm of possibility.

    I personally find it much more reasonable and rational to see the death of Christ in a different way. His death does not relieve sin, wash away sin, making man acceptable to God. He was a sacrifice in the sense that what the was teaching demanded death, by the Jews, and instead of relenting and stopping his revolutionary teaching, he stuck by his guns, conveyed the Words coming from the Creator, to man, via the man called Christ, and became in a sense a sacrifice, sacrificing, giving his life so that his words and teachings might live on and spread. After all, He was so certain of the truth involved in what he taught that he literally died for it. I think this interpretation at least makes good sense, and takes the death of christ into reality and out of the realm of fairy tales.

    Christians love their fairy tales though, and few would ever give them up.
     
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  4. Diuretic

    Diuretic Well-Known Member

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    Critics of Christianity which I've read make this assertion that Christianity is a bloodfest. You can chuck in cannibalism as well if you go along with the idea that Holy Communion is where you ingest the body and blood of Christ - okay call it symbolic cannibalism then. I'm not convinced by the critiques. References to sacrifice can be found in many religions and I think are leftovers from the appeasement of gods. And there have been some pretty bloody religions that would make Christianity's symbolisms milquetoast in comparison.

    My own critique is quite simple. None of it makes any sense at all. I do think there was a rabbi or preacher called Yeshua who came from Nazareth and did some good things. The rest of it is just too silly for words.
     
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  5. Matt84

    Matt84 Well-Known Member

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    Christianity is a joke that has gone on for far too long.
     
  6. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    The primary reason for the sacrifices was to feed the lazy assed priests. They got to eat the sacrifices without having to do any real work. It was a great scam. Christianity eliminated that because the Christians were basically cheapskates. Therefore they made the Jesus character into the ultimate sacrifice for all time so that they could keep their stuff. They don't even have to fork over a set percentage of their cash, like 10%.

    It is always about the money.
     
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  7. CourtJester

    CourtJester Well-Known Member

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    Jesus wasn't a man.
     
  8. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Donor

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    1. Jesus volunteered
    2. God did not punish him, the Romans did for the Jews.
    3. I would not do it involuntarily.
    4. Romans could have denied him over 2,000 years ago. But they have a sacred place in Italy to hold meetings devoted to him.
    5. Constantine believed in Jesus and his teachings.
     
  9. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Donor

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    Why didn't Constantine the Roman ruler say that?
     
  10. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Donor

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    Why exactly did Constantine disagree with you? He was much closer to Jesus than you are.
     
  11. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Donor

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    Today the closest thing we have to Pagans are the Democrats in the Democratic party.

    But if they forget the Bible, instead look at Roman history, study Constantine, who was much nearer Jesus than any of us can be, he believed in Jesus and believed in the Bible as well.

    So don't trust what you believe, trust Constantine the Roman emperor. He created the current Catholic headquarters in Italy.,
     
  12. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Early Christians certainly thought he was a man
     
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  13. CourtJester

    CourtJester Well-Known Member

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    Yes lots of men are born of immaculate conception?
     
  14. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Donor

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    If you burn the Bible, you still have Emperor Constantine who in my view is the true enabler and promoter of the Christian story.

    I wonder if the Bible could have survived but for his efforts. The Vatican is his creation.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great_and_Christianity
     
  15. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Donor

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    Ignore that part. It does not have to be true. I am my fathers son. He and Mom did not bear me. She had married someone else. Who in my life simply was not my father.

    Study the Decline and fall of the Roman Empire. Constantine by edict sanctified the Christians. He believed in them and he was a lot closer than any of us are to the Christians.

    I ought to be totally shocked at how few Democrats bothered to study his books but he does a fine job supporting the Christians though at first the church in England was displeased with Gibbons.

    [​IMG]
     
  16. CourtJester

    CourtJester Well-Known Member

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    Constantine was a lot closer than any of us to the Christians? Now that is a claim worthy of further explanation.
     
  17. VoxEphemeral

    VoxEphemeral Banned

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    Read this: https://www.amazon.com/Mythmaker-Pa...8&qid=1546485058&sr=8-1&keywords=hyam+maccoby

    You will see that ONE man invented the mythical "Christ" and that poor old Jesus was used to get the crafty Saul/Paul wealth and power.
     
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  18. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Donor

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    Emperor Constantine was the Roman Emperor. And he decided to believe in Jesus and Christians and created Christianity as the religion of Rome. Constantine caused the land used by the Catholics, known as the Vatican in Rome to be donated to the Christians to be used by the Catholics, where they still are. Constantine led Rome in the early 300s including to 337 AD I believe it was. Anyway, he caused Rome to be the center of the Christian religion over lets say in Israel.

    In my many years of posting, i have yet to read any Democrat mention that Christianity is not centered in israel but in Italy at the Vatican.
     
  19. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    !! I love the "beating the slave when the prince did something wrong" analogy.

    Old habits die hard. The practice of blood sacrifice had been around a long time prior to the first century AD. I watched a very interesting youtube video by an expert who talked about the need for blood sacrifice in the Jewish religion. The bigger the sin.. the bigger the sacrifice.

    The belief was that Israel had not risen to its former glory due to not offering a big enough sacrifice. What bigger sacrifice than the son of a God ?

    Unfortunately even this sacrifice did not work ... a short time later when the Jews tried to regain some semblance of former glory via revolt the Romans destroyed the Jewish Temple and the Jews were designated pretty much persona non grata.

    Then after the Rome fell the Christians took up the persecution of the Jews on the basis that they killed their God.
     
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  20. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That is someone's idea, but it may not be necessarily so. And it would not explain the idea of sacrificing life, when it comes to other religions, human life in particular. So this idea of sacrificing life, to benefit those that did not die in a sacrifice, is deeper than your rather shallow(IMO) explanation would allow. ha ha

    Also, it is a huge move to go from sacrificing animals, to the sacrifice of a human being. And supposedly it was the Son of God, or an aspect of God, given the Trinity idea.

    But of course, the spirit of god within christ didn't really die, come to an end, so again, it makes no sense, the power of killing christ, who cannot be actually killed, his existence snuffed out.
     
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