The Economy can't keep on growing forever

Discussion in 'Economics & Trade' started by kazenatsu, Mar 9, 2019.

  1. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    You and I were both talking about GDP, and I said and showed that investments are a component of GDP. Stock buy-backs are investments.
     
  2. james M

    james M Banned

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    and this is significant because?
     
  3. jdog

    jdog Banned

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    I have been a landlord more than 30 years, if it were possible to borrow money and run a positive cash flow, everyone would do it.
    You must have a substantial down before any rental runs a positive cash flow.
     
  4. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I view them as about equal, in general, though different options will be more cost effective to different people.
    Traditionally buying has been a bit more economical, and then there is the inherent economic issue of the tragedy of commons, it's more efficient for owners because they have an inherent incentive to take care of the property.
    Though sometimes rental of apartment units can be more cost effective because of the economy of scale.
    I think we can all agree that there's an inherent economic equilibrium that exists to some extent, because people do have choices. (i.e. if one gets way more expensive people will have a tendency to switch to the other)

    Anyway, all this is really besides the point in this discussion.
     
  5. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "Fairness is in the eye of the beholder."

    Nothing in your remark obviates the actual fact that the Census Bureau Poverty Threshold ($25K a year) of the US contains nearly 14% of America's men, women (see here below).
    [​IMG]


    Which is an average income of $12 an hour ($480 week) a year, when they work, for about 40 million of our fellow Americans.

    So why not bring the Minimum Hourly wage up to $12 an hour? Just what is your problem with raising the MW? You think it will put you out of work?

    Which is unlikely. It will, however, likely boost incomes in levels higher than $12 an hour* ... !

    *And your BigMac will cost 15 cents more!
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
  6. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    BS.

    Wars and disasters are facts-of-life. Government Intervention is not an act of God but of elected officials - meaning it is man-made.

    Get your one-liner factoids straight ... !
     
  7. expatpanama

    expatpanama Active Member

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    We sound like we're all having separate conversations and all need to agree on what we're talking about.

    Corporations raise capital two ways, loans (bonds) and shares --lenders and share buyers are investing when their money is used by corps. When the corps pay off the loans and buy back the shares the investing stops as the investors get their money back w/ earnings..

    Are we all still together on this?
     
  8. expatpanama

    expatpanama Active Member

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    [​IMG]
    Go ahead & vote for a $12 min. wage if you want but most of us are still trying to understand why the hike would raise incomes now when a smaller hike lowered them in '09.
     
  9. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    No.

    I don't know what you are specifying when you say "when corps pay off the loans and buy back the shares the investing stops as the investors get their money back w/ earnings.."

    Are you referring to BOND investors or STOCK investors who "get their money back"?

    Also, you said "...share buyers are investing when their money is used by corps."

    Share buyers are also investing when they buy shares on the stock exchange from a market maker. But the corp doesn't get that money. So again, you're not being specific enough to be saying something meaningful.
     
  10. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Really? A number of different things put pressure on wages, --not just the level or change in the minimum wage. In 2009 you may recall we were beginning to see an end to the Recession, but the economic troubles for most of us were not to be over until ...... -EVER.

    So in 2009-2013 jobs, wages, incomes, etc. were not improving. The broad economy was still struggling. In 2009 the unemployment rate went from about 8% to about 10% in early November. Only then did the employment rate begin to improve, but wages trail increasing employment and it didn't catch up until last year.

    Therefore, the answer to your concern ("a smaller hike lowered them in '09") is that the small hike in minimum wage wasn't what lowered wages. It was the recession and sluggish recovery.
     
  11. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    There is no 'them'? It's us, all of those before us, and all of those who follow.

    Immigration has worked just fine in the USA for the past couple of centuries and it will work moving forward once we remove the racists.

    As far as ROI...you have no choice! There will not be enough home-grown kids to sustain positive GDP growth for years to come.

    Instead of labeling people 'immigrants' when talking about the economy, why not just talk about 'labor'? More labor allows us to produce more. Better educated labor allows us to design and innovate. The US without immigrants won't produce enough labor. So if labor is critical in GDP growth, where are you going to get it?
     
  12. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    All people, no matter their incomes, require shelter, transportation, food, clothing, etc.
     
  13. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Why not remove all immigrants within the last 20-30 years then tell me how you think things will look today?
     
  14. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Economic growth requires all segments to achieve. Labor is one critical segment. Immigration is a critical portion of the labor segment...
     
  15. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There would be a whole lot less people.
    (Especially when looking at the under-30 age group)

    I agree that it is a big portion of the labor segment today, but that doesn't necessarily have to be the case (at least not anywhere near to the extent it is now).

    Many countries in the world do not rely on outside inmigration in their labor markets.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
  16. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And those essential things would be a lot cheaper to provide for them in the lower cost of living countries where they came from.
     
  17. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That's not entirely true. At around the time of the Great Depression the U.S. drastically limited it for several decades.
    As did many other countries.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
  18. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Still doesn't explain why countries such as Mexico and India are so poor.
     
  19. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Many countries in the world do not have an economy like the US...
     
  20. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Maybe lower cost but also lower income or no income. My family came from Germany in 1895, with little education, little skills, no money, but willing to work hard to achieve their wishes, and combined the family has made tremendous contributions to the USA...I see no reason for this not to continue with people today...
     
  21. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Of course over 200 years there are blips...but the key is the US and all of it's citizens and immigrants have grown over the 200 years. I'm not saying let 10 million immigrants per year into the US but I am saying our future depends on immigrants...
     
  22. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Why are some families or individuals poor? Bad decisions! Think about Mexico, and if you have ever traveled to various areas of Mexico, and let's say you were a nation-building specialist...Mexico has so much potential! But without the right governance, without providing education, etc. for everyone, without infrastructure and security, etc., it takes twice as much time for a nation like this to develop.

    If I was president of the USA, one of my goals would be to assist Mexico in achieving it's potential, and in doing so, create a political and geographic and economic partner. The US is going to need some strong allies in the near future...
     
  23. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But surely you are not arguing the solution to that is to move people from country B to country A where they will have it.

    Things like education are inherently no more difficult to provide in country B than country A.
    When it comes to infrastructure, that's not all just a fixed cost.
    Moving people doesn't really solve the underlying security issue either. The bad ones come along with the good.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
  24. expatpanama

    expatpanama Active Member

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    Of course when we're talking money we talk numbers and results.

    Foreign born in the U.S. are only about an eighth the total population, and the annual immigration rate is less than a %. Sure that's a lot when they say, show up in your living room but it's no where near the level of the labor market --about half the total U.S. population and the other half is either their dependents or their business owners.
     
  25. expatpanama

    expatpanama Active Member

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    In business/economic accounting shares are an asset to the shareholders and a liability to the corporations --shares are listed as debt by macroeconomic wonks. If you borrow money from a bank and they sell your note to some other business then you owe the money to the new note holder. If the bank was not allowed to sell your note they probably would never have loaned you the $ in the first place.

    If share holders were not allowed to sell their shares to the next owners of the corp., they never would have bot the shares in the first place. Marxists are idiots. Shareholders make the corporation possible.

    We hear this thinking a lot from Marxists who deny that most employees are employed by corporations which are owned by shareholders --but then again a lot of left-wingers are unemployed and on welfare anyway so they really don't know anything about working w/ money to begin with.
     

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