The Failed War on Drugs

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by ibshambat, Jul 6, 2016.

  1. ibshambat

    ibshambat Banned

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    One of the most counter-productive policies of recent decades has been the War on Drugs. It resulted in prison population growing four times. And it turned the inner city into a war zone.

    Yes, drugs can be harmful; but so can alcohol and tobacco. Neither of these substances is against the law, and I do not see why marijuana or LSD should be.

    Most of the crime associated with drugs is due not to drugs themselves but to the fact that they are illegal. Mafia had its heyday during the Prohibition, when alcohol was against the law and only the criminals could supply it. Since drugs are illegal, that creates a bonanza for gangs and cartels, both of them doing what they do in the same way as criminal entities have always done it – brutally.

    The War on Drugs has created two parasitical infrastructures. One is the gangs and cartels to supply the drugs; the other is a bloated prison bureaucracy. In Netherlands, where drugs are legal, incarceration rates are one tenth those of the United States; and there is much less violent crime.

    The people who pushed for the War on Drugs are the same people who advocate for small government. A small government is not a government that tells people what they can put into their bodies. America's vast incarceration rates are not “the price for a free society.” Netherlands is a much freer society, and its incarceration rates are much lower.

    Yes, there are drug users who become irresponsible. But there are many responsible people in places like California who use marijuana, and it does not harm their lives in any way. The only negative consequence they get is if they get arrested; and that is not the fault of drugs but the fault of drugs being against the law.

    The War on Drugs must be wound down. It is a failed policy, and its results have been disastrous. Drugs can be bad for people; however there are many other things that are bad for people that are legal. It is not up to the government to tell people in a free country what they can put into their bodies. And criminalizing drugs empowers only the real criminals.
     
  2. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I hope you know (but I doubt you do) that the war on drugs encompasses everything from public services announcements to rehabilitation to interdiction efforts so tell us which part you don't like.
     
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  3. LokiGragg

    LokiGragg New Member

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    The scare tactics involved in PSA's or some hilarious video featuring an egg, yup very persuasive. Rehabilitation gives addicts another addiction in the form of religion, as they're based on the 12 step program. Let's see some stats, numbers, facts, you know, like reasonable people.
     
  4. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Why would I do that?

    Show me where I claimed it actually works because I didn't. What I said was that the war on drugs is far deeper then simply sending people to prison for pot.

    Please try to pay attention.
     
  5. LokiGragg

    LokiGragg New Member

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    So your post didn't really have anything of substance to add? Interesting considering your accusation of trolling.
     
  6. GeorgiaAmy

    GeorgiaAmy Well-Known Member

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    Gotta love the "Just say No" campaign!
    This is your brain...this is your brain on drugs!"
    What is your understanding of rehab?
    Very curious about your take on it.
     
  7. LokiGragg

    LokiGragg New Member

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    My understanding is replacing the addiction of drugs with devotion to religion. Primarily the 12 step program which employs a "recognition of a higher power that give strength". There is quite a bit of psychology behind this as religious belief has an effect on lower serotonin levels in the brain. Along with the psychological effects of meditation, for this purpose I include prayer. And new fMRI studies showing that when reflecting on the concept of god, the brain fire in the network associated with that particular emotion. This in my view would imply that when reflecting on the concept of god, each individual believer applies god's emotion to the expression of their own emotions. By this knowledge I view rehab as trading one "crutch" for another.
     
  8. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    I agree completely. Get rid of the unconstitutional federal laws on the books, and let states decide whether they want to have legal drugs or black market drugs, and all of the violence associated with the black market.
     
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  9. GeorgiaAmy

    GeorgiaAmy Well-Known Member

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    AA's reference to god is not written as a proper noun and is not in any AA approved literature a supernatural deity. It is defined as a power greater than the lone individual capable of achieving what the individual cannot do alone.
    AA is a group of people who share a common struggle.
    Rehab and AA are completely different.
    Rehab consists of many different facilities, funded differently, for different lengths if time, with different approaches.
    AA is comprised of small self governing groups that approach AA in various ways. AA groups are not uniform or monitored by Alcoholics Anonymous.
    Rehab ranges from a 5 day detox to a year or more program. The typical goal is sobriety.
    Unfortunately, the long term success of any of them is very small.
    About 90% of alcoholics and addicts have an immediate family member or members that are also alcoholics or addicts. There is a huge genetic component.
    Animal studies show rats and monkeys after exposure to a drug will choose it over food and water. It changes brain chemistry and function, disables normal activity.
    I know a good bit about AA, alcoholism, and treatment from personal experience.
    If you have any questions, I will answer them if I am able.
     
  10. GeorgiaAmy

    GeorgiaAmy Well-Known Member

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    The states are individually deciding on pot.
    Georgia alcohol sales on Sunday just became a reality a few years ago. Liquor stores still can't open until 12:30 on Sunday.
    The public still generally had a very unfavorable opinion of other illegal drugs.
    Pot got pushed in a very successful media campaign for medical mary k with these heartbreaking stories of people suffering that pot could help.
     
  11. LokiGragg

    LokiGragg New Member

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    Perhaps I allowed my cynical viewpoint to cloud that I know AA doesn't reference a god in the religious sense. I'm curious about your thoughts on the apparent relation AA has with CBT. I myself have never been to AA or rehab, so I'm by no means an authority on the subject, my background that relates to this subject though is psychology. The effects certain drugs can have on brain chemistry results in the body's need for homeostasis, which is well documented. In that sense I would say it more inhibits normal activity rather than disables it. Withdrawal for example is the period in time the brain achieves homeostasis, which was set off balance by the drug.
     
  12. GeorgiaAmy

    GeorgiaAmy Well-Known Member

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    I had to look up CBT...haha. I have been to various detox and rehab facilities in metro Atlanta...Detox ranges from 5-30 days contingent on your withdrawal symptoms, insurance, and your desire or lack of to be there. Opiate withdrawal is significantly longer than alcohol withdrawal...other factors are the amount, length of time used, frequency, gender, age, health... I am talking about physical withdrawal. Opiates/opiods, benzodiazepines, and alcohol are typically the cause. Detox facilities are staffed with licensed doctors, nurses, social workers, therapists. The doctor determines your prescriptions/dose, nurses dispense/oversee dispensing of meds, social workers coordinate discharge and follow up appointments, therapists may be part of a treatment team that sets up group agendas and daily schedules...
    The individual patient doesn't spend much time with any of them.
    Groups are usually relapse prevention, processing, social relations, coping skills, discharge planning, short term goal setting/evaluation, healthy emotional expression.. They are usually facilitated by staff but the patients do most of the talking, activity, exercise, etc.
    Behavior modification isn't going to be very productive in a 30 day or under rehab.
    Long term rehab isn't cheap and if your insurance pays at all, it is still going to be expensive. My longest was just under five months in a residential women's program.
    It cost about $700 a month.
    An intensive, long term rehabilitation facility (like Talbot here in Atlanta) led by primarily professionals with the structure and individual attention is tremendously expensive. 15-45k paid prior to services.
    I had a doctor once relate an astronaut in space to a chemically addicted person... The astronaut in space experiences muscle atrophy. The extent of which can vary depending on how long they were in space, their health and muscle strength before...sometimes the loss is fixed completely, sometimes the previous muscle mass and strength are permanently damaged.
    Even when normal brain function resumes, addicts and alcoholics are overloaded. They have been sedated for so long, they are ill equipped to handle emotions, responsibility, anxiety, relationships... They are usually medicated for a while to transition gradually back to normal which decreases the chance of relapse...
    Sorry so long!!
     
  13. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    So why didn't your buddies end the war on drugs instead messing up everyone's health care?
     
  14. waltky

    waltky Well-Known Member

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    Marijuana and prescription painkillers are flooding into the Gaza Strip...
    [​IMG]
    As drugs flood into Gaza, Hamas to get tougher on smugglers
    Wednesday 8th March, 2017: Marijuana and prescription painkillers are flooding into the Gaza Strip as never before, prompting officials from the ruling Islamist group Hamas to seek tougher punishments for smuggling drugs into the blockaded territory.
     
  15. waltky

    waltky Well-Known Member

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    Big ol' drug bust in Orange county...
    [​IMG]
    More than 30 arrested in Orange County drug raid
    March 17, 2017 --Fathers and sons. Husbands and wives.
     
  16. LiveUninhibited

    LiveUninhibited Well-Known Member

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    I know. I had an internal McEnroe Moment when I heard Sessions had resurrected Nancy Reagan's Just Say No retardation.

    I was like:
     
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  17. LiveUninhibited

    LiveUninhibited Well-Known Member

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    More lives ruined for nothing. More desperate people will take their place and nothing will be solved by this. Not even if they lock the whole country down like a prison.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2017
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  18. HailVictory

    HailVictory Banned at Members Request

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    The War on Drugs has been somewhat successful at decreasing the sale of illegal drugs and making it harder for them to deal. But natural selection, this will weed out only the ones who are very very good, the real criminals. However, street dealers are an arguably worse problem, and cracking down on minor crime starts to constrict major crime; while it empowers them, it also gives you one target.

    And also, are you insinuating that marijuana is not harmful? Furthermore, your argument is somewhat weak. You say that alcohol and tabacco, which are harmful but illegal, warrent legalizing LSD, which really doesn't make sense.

    The reason Prohibition failed so badly was because American society and economy depended on alcohol. Cops weren't really cracking down on the alcohol trade, and couldn't really pin the mobs on anything else because they had no real proof. The only reason Prohibition was repealed was because of FDR, the Depression, and the New Deal. Had there not been a Depression, it would have probably gone on for much longer until people actually wanted to change the law.

    You also keep comparing to the Netherlands. While the Netherlands has a more lax policy on drugs and have taken steps to legalize marijuana and other so called "soft" drugs, it is the world's highest producer of heroin, cocaine, and amphetamines. Looks like being lax about drugs has increased hard drug activity, surprise surprise.

    By this logic, we should just abolish all economically constricting law. Legalize all kinds of things on the basis that it empowers criminals (sex trafficking and the like). There will always be criminals. By definition, any law empowers criminals; you need a law to break to be a criminal. Repealing law is just going to make the crime legal; that doesn't really help you, does it.
     
  19. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    The basic problem is the US, the DEA has created itself in particular.

    Sure, all the hard drugs, whose trade and abuse by addicts ... these things are fighting.
    On the subject of Marijuhana, however, it looks a little different when you look at the story!
    Sure, whether the use is harmful or not is a dispute. You ask 4 experts and you get 9 different views.
    The pointist, however, was the reason why Marijuhana suddenly became a very evil cause and was so strongly opposed. Here comes a real doubt, because it was the DEA which chose Marijuhana as an enemy image and suddenly it was a very bad thing, but not at all! The point is that the DEA at that time fought for independent survival as an authority and was just as that was at stake, Marijuhana was declared a state enemy and the DEA survived! Strange, is not it?
    Furthermore, Marijuhana makes up the bulk of drug trafficking that makes this scum of drug cartels worth billions.

    No, I do not take marijuhana and have never tried it and also no desire to do it, so do not think I'm a fan of that stuff!
     
  20. VietVet

    VietVet Well-Known Member

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    The war on drugs has been a HUGE success for the privatized prison industry. We have way more prisoners than Red China which is a dictatorship and has multiples of our population.
    People who have not harmed anyone are in prison because drug laws are good for business - the prison business.
     
  21. waltky

    waltky Well-Known Member

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    Dindu Nuffin gonna have to face the music now...
    [​IMG]
    Tanzania approves extradition to US of alleged drug kingpin
    Apr 12,`17 -- A Tanzanian court on Wednesday approved the extradition to the United States the alleged leader of a global drug trafficking ring who was arrested after a two-year manhunt.
     
  22. waltky

    waltky Well-Known Member

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    Pot bust by British, Spanish police nabs 24 traffickers...
    [​IMG]
    Spain, Britain arrest 24 over marijuana trafficking
    May 21, 2017 -- Spanish and British police arrested 24 people in connection to a plot to traffic marijuana to Liverpool hidden within packs marble tiles.
     
  23. Mircea

    Mircea Well-Known Member

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    Illicit drug use in the United States has been increasing. In 2013, an estimated 24.6 million Americans aged 12 or older—9.4 percent of the population—had used an illicit drug in the past month. This number is up from 8.3 percent in 2002. The increase mostly reflects a recent rise in use of marijuana, the most commonly used illicit drug.

    [emphasis in original]

    https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugfacts/nationwide-trends

    90.6% of Americans don't use drugs, and by any objective standard or measure, that makes the War on Drugs™ a success, in spite of your claim.

    Pfaff points out that the proportion of state prisoners whose primary crime was a drug offense “rises sharply from 1980 to 1990, when it peaks at 22 percent. But that’s only 22 percent: nearly four-fifths of all state prisoners in 1990 were not drug offenders.” By 2010 the number had dropped to 17 percent. “Reducing the admissions of drug offenders will not meaningfully reduce prison populations,” he concludes.

    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/soci...-critical-distinction-between-stock-and-flow/

    Well, your second claim just got debunked.

    That's a product of Culture and Life-Style, plus poor policing.

    I'm already subsiding alcohol, tobacco, and illegal/illicit drug use for those receiving government Welfare benefits.

    Why should I subsidize legal drug use?
     
  24. TCassa89

    TCassa89 Well-Known Member

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    Meanwhile Portugal went the rout of decriminalizing all drugs in the year 2000. The results
    [​IMG]
    https://mic.com/articles/120403/14-...y-portugal-s-experiment-has-worked#.J2X4YsTpz
     
  25. Andrew Jackson

    Andrew Jackson Well-Known Member

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