The fight for Brexit is only just beginning

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by Striped Horse, Mar 12, 2019.

  1. Striped Horse

    Striped Horse Well-Known Member

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    Interesting, don't you think, that we've now reached the stage where all the options are about staying in the EU -- either a "soft" Brexit, which really is not Brexit at all, or a long delay of a year or more granted by the EU in exchange for a major political shift by the government (probably a General Election) to break the so called "log-jam".
     
  2. cerberus

    cerberus Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Um, might it be because the EU represents a fresh jobs market for the boys and girls when they shuffle off their Westminster career coils? (god, that metaphor is so bad I ought to be embarrassed? lol)
     
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  3. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    Mate ...
    for me ... who is well known on the part of the EU (and what is funny because I myself have harsh criticisms ... lol) ... is the question of whether deal or no deal at all!

    Do you believe or do anyone in the UK and EU seriously and without any reverie believe that this extension will bring any change to the current situation?
    In other words ... will there suddenly be a yes to the agreement during the extension? Is it decided that new elections will take place? Will a 2nd referendum be decided? Sorry ... but rather freezes hell than one of those things happens!

    So in my eyes, it's just about it. to use the extension for the fact that the No Deal Brexit does not end in total chaos and anarchy and that both sides reasonably prepare for it. Is there anything against it for you?
     
  4. Striped Horse

    Striped Horse Well-Known Member

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    Well, I'm willing to bet a Tenner M, that the UK will not now Brexit. There will be, perhaps, a "soft" version that is Brexit in name only which the EU and the British elite can live with. But Brexit is de facto dead. Imo.

    I have watched this Gilbert & Sullivan joke operetta unfold - as I imagine you have - for the last couple of years and my observation is that the British ruling elite, shocked and astonished as they were by the Brexit vote, recovered their breath and then brought to bear the tactics of confusion to frustrate and ultimately reverse the referendum vote.

    I actually hope I'm wrong and a real Brexit goes ahead. But it won't.
     
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  5. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    I see something different with the "evil elites" ... and I hardly believe that Brexit still has a majority in the UK population.

    But that does not matter in the end!

    IMO will end up with a No Deal Brexit ... but hopefully soft enough for both sides to spend and use extension time NOW and make the necessary preparations and measures that a no deal Brexit can go smooth without chaos.

    The problem is that you and your elected politicians are just a clown troupe in the circus that no one takes seriously anymore ... takes even less seriously than that boss clown Johnson or that slutty lord of lies - Farrage.
    You have now felicitously reflected in your Parliament what your population looks like: There is no such thing as a majority for anything ... except that there is agreement not to agree on anything by a majority.
     
  6. Striped Horse

    Striped Horse Well-Known Member

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    2 million elderly Brits have died and 1.5 million younger Brits have come on to the voting rolls since the 2016 referendum. The second referendum sword-swallowing Remainers considered that most of those voting for Brexit were elderly and those voting to remain were younger, hence they saw the opportunity to alter the referendum decision by having a second referendum.

    For me this is a clear case of perverting a democratic vote. The argument is invalid because the British system is a first past the post vote and winning by one vote is a win. That always holds in general elections, but not apparently when it comes to Brexit when the ruling elite want to remain inside the EU in one way or another.

    I doubt it M. There's no will in Parliament for a no deal Brexit. In fact, Parliamentarians are dead set against that outcome.

    [quote[The problem is that you and your elected politicians are just a clown troupe in the circus that no one takes seriously anymore ... takes even less seriously than that boss clown Johnson or that slutty lord of lies - Farrage.
    You have now felicitously reflected in your Parliament what your population looks like: There is no such thing as a majority for anything ... except that there is agreement not to agree on anything by a majority.[/QUOTE]

    Yep, but rather than clown troupes they are "taxis" available for hire by anyone with money. They bring a new understanding to the word "professional". I wouldn't trust a damn one of them. The last thing that Parliament reflects is the British population (as witnessed by the Brexit vote and everything that has taken place subsequently in Parliament to frustrate and reverse that vote).
     
  7. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    Mmmh ... you know that this could also be seen otherwise and reversed ... means the old dinosaurs in the UK, who voted in favor of Brexit and are now dying out, have done a lot of damage to the younger generation, who mostly voted against Brexit ... before they bless the clock!

    Then let's do some label fraud ...
    There was a referendum for Brexit and a second referendum for Brexit is a mistake ...
    But what about a referendum on joining the EU again? That would not be a 2nd Brexit referendum ... purely from the label ;-)



    Democracy Demanded ... what would be the better alternative to the current situation for you?
     
  8. Striped Horse

    Striped Horse Well-Known Member

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    The problem with this argument is that it is terribly flawed as it proposes that there should be an age restriction on voting in a democracy. That only the young (presumably defined as under 45-60 years old?) have gathered sufficient knowledge and experience of life for their votes to be meaningful. This a dangerous philosophy.

    Once you have segregated society into useful voters and useless voters what's to stop this shortly being followed by reviving ancient Heruli practises of state enforced geronticide.

    It's a very dangerous path to entertain.

    Yes, of course, a second referendum is a mistake --- it means that the first one is rendered meaningless/pointless/flawed and a blind eye should be turned against it; whereas it presupposes a second one will somehow be rendered valid.

    Not to forget that this is, by now, a well known tactic of the EU and the European neoliberal elite to keep repeating referendums until they get the decision they want (and then no more).

    Democracy Demanded ... what would be the better alternative to the current situation for you?[/QUOTE]

    The bare minimum is that the UK must honour the 2016 referendum vote and leave the EU.
     
  9. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, the topic of "age" among voters in all sorts of democratic elections is a very hot and dangerous topic ... without question!
    Exactly because of this I had brought in your post this "objection" in terms of age ... to show how different you can see a thing and how dangerous that can be or become in such a discussion.

    My personal opinion is that the whole of Brexit is total nonsense, grounded in a mountain of lies, and where most of them who are screaming "evil EU", unfortunately have no idea about the EU, the institutions and organs of the EU and who what has to decide and can decide in the EU.
    But the decision has been made and personally, the only question for me is how ordered a No Deal Brexit after WTO Rules will happen ... hopefully for both sides without chaos.

    As I said ... a second Brexit referendum is also nonsense for me ...

    BUT ... hypotetically ... if the EU supporters in the UK are smart and make a "BRENTER" referendum ... what's against it?
    Sure, the pro-Brexit people are angry and will shout like mad for "voter fraus", label dfraud" etc. ... but purely from the point of view, it's not about holding a 2. referendum on the exit again, but about re-entering the EU, what is something else ... . ;-)

    Likewise ... only hypotetically asked ... if at the next parliamentary elections any of your parties compete in the election campaign promises to want to re-enter the EU in a victory .... and let's assume they actually win with absooluter Majority ... what then mate?
     
  10. NMNeil

    NMNeil Well-Known Member

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    It seems that unless May can give her masters in the EU a definite plan, they will possibly say no to an extension. As Parliament could not organize a p**s up in a brewery there's little chance of getting a plan together in just over 2 weeks.

    An aide to French President Emmanuel Macron said on Tuesday a UK request for an extension to remain in the EU beyond 29 March deadline will not be “unquestioningly accepted”.

    “First point: is there a plan, a strategy, to justify an extension […] Second point: we need to look at the impact on the EU,” he added, saying that an extension would mean the UK participating in EU elections and in EU decision-making procedures.

    “If the hypothesis is to make a new referendum, we can consider a postponement of a few months” concedes the official.

    Dutch PM Mark Rutte, who has compared Theresa May with the limbless knight of ‘Monty Python’, said that if the UK asks for an extension, he wants to know how long a postponement would take and what London seeks to achieve.

    “I have a lot of respect for Theresa May. She reminds me occasionally of that ‘Monty Python’ character where all his arms and legs are cut off and then says to his opponent: Let’s call it a draw”, Rutte said on 18 March.
     
  11. Striped Horse

    Striped Horse Well-Known Member

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    Brenter? I don't see that happening after what has happened these last 2+ years. On the other hand if you mean by that term concluding a compatible trade deal that suits both parties, after Brexit has happened, then sure.
     
  12. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    I call it "BRENTER" ... joke ... because it is another referendum to re-enter the EU = not a second Brexit referendum ;-)
    No idea what will happen at least ...

    And why not making a complete deal with the Brexit as negotiated ... but ruin the UK with a no deal Brexit?
     
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  13. FivepointFive

    FivepointFive Banned

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    So the elite doesn't like brexit why am I not surprised
    .
    I'm selling yellow vests. cheap. no Bolshevik
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2019
  14. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    Yellow is the new red color ... you know? :-D
     
  15. gnoib

    gnoib Well-Known Member

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    I can not see a extension past the EU election and than what would it be good for.
    May will never find a majority for anything.
    The UK parliament voted against a hard Brexit, but I doubt it will vote for revoking article 50, which is at the present the only possibility left to prevent a hard Brexit.
    Well a last minute panic move is always possible.

    But than what ?
     
  16. NMNeil

    NMNeil Well-Known Member

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    As long as they don't have the gut churning "Made in China" on them :angered:
     

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