The Folly of Atheism

No, you are making the unsupportable claim that he claims absolute knowledge, while displaying that tendency in your own post.

To quote you, how could you possibly know the absolute truth?

Further more, why do you care if others do not believe as you do? A wannbe god complex?

 

Not so much a Gish Gallop as a Gish Sprint going on there.

 

Yeah, that's part of the biggest problem with the thread: the worldview "buckets" being enforced are full of holes and don't accurately reflect the breadth of the philosophical positions adhered to by naturalists, supernaturalist, skeptics, absurdists, etc. The buckets ignore the fact that there are . . .

- Theistic naturalists/physicalists/materialists (Einstein, Spinoza, Jefferson, Hobbes)
- Atheistic non-physicalists (Schopenhauer)
- Theistic absurdists (Kierkegaard)
- Theists/supernaturalists who deny the existence of the physical world (Mary Baker Eddy)
- Theistic relativists (William Lain Craig, Joseph Fletcher)
- Atheistic empiricists (Dennett, Dawkins)
- Theistic anti-empiricists (Most of the Christian fundamentalist anti-science movement today)

The further conflation of atheism with Marxism and Darwinism ignores the existence of . . .

- Anti-Marxist atheists (Rand, Bakunin)
- Theists who embrace Darwinism (most modern deists)
- Marxist theists (several Russian Orthodox still venerate Stalin)

And I'm many more.

 

Indeed.
Indoctrination of the young is at the core of every religion's practice. Very young children are exposed to the religious beliefs of the members of their immediate family. These people take their children to their Church, Synagogue or Mosque from a very early age. Then, at least the Christians, are exposed to things like Sunday School and Bible Studies. This early indoctrination is very difficult to overcome, even in latter years and throughout adulthood.

This indoctrination is not only at the level of major religious beliefs, but down to specific regional, local and familial beliefs: Liberal Catholics, Conservative Catholics, Sunni, Shia, Liberal Protestant, Fundamentalist Southern Baptist, Mormon and Pentecostalic.

There is no such widespread and institutionalized practice to further atheistic views. Most atheists become atheists in spite of their early indoctrination.

 

No man can serve two masters: for either he. will hate the one, and love the other; or else. he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Matthew 6:24 - Wikipedia​

Dictators knew/know this as well as Matthew did, and it probably wasn't original to him.

Some leaders took the path to "outlawing" religion. Others, like Christian kings around the time of the Protestant Reformation took the path of aligning themselves with whichever religious beliefs and practices (Protestant or Catholic) they believed would further their own agendas. Hitler used the writings of Martin Luther to fan the flames of antisemitism in German Christians.

The problem with religion, and I'll limit this to Christianity and Islam, is in the holy scripture and the interpretations of holy scripture by religious leaders. One can find justification for almost any form of good or hatred and violence in holy scripture.

Want to stone an adulteress, look in the OT. Want a reason to not stone an adulteress, look in the NT. Want to get rid of Jews, read the writings of Martin Luther. Want to kill all infidels, read some Quranic verses. Don't want to kill all infidels, read some other Quranic verses. Want to argue against science, interpret Genesis literally. Want to show how the bible promotes science, interpret other verses allegorically.

The problem is that in every case, someone can say "It is The Word Of God" to rally the troops. For believers obeying "The Word of God" results in everlasting life.

 

The thing is, claims made without evidence may be dismissed without evidence. I don't feel compelled to prove anything.

 

Usually families endeavor to raise children in the spittin' image of the Father, regardless of what the children's personal bents, proclivities, inclinations, desires or preferences happen to be. So, "It Takes a Village to Raise a Child," regardless of what any other narrow, self-interested addle-pated viewpoint contends.

 

Morality, empathy, compassion are not folly. Superstition, religious bigotry are folly. Science, with its handmaiden Business, has ridden rough-shod over the best interests of The People. Religions have ridden rough-shot over the best interests of The People.

 

The children of atheists often become theists in turn, so that doesn't really prove anything.
http://nineteensixty-four.blogspot.com/2012/06/reverts-catholics-who-left-and-came.html
http://nineteensixty-four.blogspot.com/2012/07/schisms-of-religiously-unaffiliated.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Murray (Madalyn Murray O'Hair's son)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabrielle_Carey (Australian author)

 

By the same token, the theists can dismiss your claim out of hand, since you haven't proven anything.

Here's another perspective I thought of earlier today: Put yourself in God's shoes. You exist outside of time & space, for whatever billions of years the universe has and will exist. One of the billions of ants on one of the quadrillions of planets in the billions of galaxies wants you to prove your existence to him personally. How much attention do you pay to said ant?

 

I'm an atheist conservative. But then I was a fundamental Baptist before, and taken to a Methodist church when young. I disagree with homosexual marriage, abortion on demand, and all the rest of the progressive agenda. However, I am a white male and I do watch Nature and Nova on PBS. I hardly think either of them count as "indoctrination", though.

 

If you have something to say, say it. Don't just copy and paste a bunch of links and expect me to read them and try to figure out where they support the argument you haven't made.

 

I did say it. The first two links are to articles about how likely it is for various constituencies to remain in the "religious" belief they were raised in (very low for atheism), the second two links are to two examples of people raised atheist who converted to theism.

 

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You missed this part: Don't just copy and paste a bunch of links and expect me to read them and try to figure out where they support the argument you haven't made

 

I can do that, too. In response to your statement that most atheists became atheists despite "indoctrination," I said:
The children of atheists often become theists in turn, so that doesn't really prove anything.

 

I'm not making a claim, I'm dismissing one with no evidence to support it.

 

shouting removed in the following...

We were discussing indoctrination. Your comment that "children of atheists often become theists in turn", just goes to my point of religious indoctrination.

My point about your cut and paste links is that you didn't say anything about what was in the linked articles. Later you said two of them referred to atheists becoming theists but, again, you didn't reference or discuss anything that was in the linked article.

 

And children ot theists often be come atheists. You have no point.

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Since supposedly those ants are his creations and objects of his love, quite a bit.

 

Seriously, you people are retarded if you can't see the point. Let me spell it out for you like you were kindergartners...

a) If children were indoctrinated into religious belief, or if that indoctrination really worked, no one would become an atheist as an adult.
b) If the "religion" that children were raised in really indoctrinated them, then no one raised as an atheist would later become a theist as an adult.
c) Both things happen.
d) Therefore, children are not indoctrinated, or if you prefer, it doesn't work.

For more examples, look at the children of Nazis, Communists, skinheads, pornographers, dictators, etc. They typically really were indoctrinated into the beliefs of their parents and yet grew up to renounce their parents' beliefs and practices.

This same stupidity happens on the right, with fluoridation, for example. If fluoridation of water turned people into mindless zombies for the state, why are there any non-mindless-zombies who use fluoridated water? Since it doesn't WORK, it must not be TRUE. DO YOU UNDERSTAND YET?

 

Calling people retarded and belittling them while presenting what can only be termed a kindergarten explanation of complex and vague issues does not present you in a flattering light.

 

Actually, you are the one who is thinking like a kindergartner. You think in terms of all or nothing. Adults, on the other hand, know there are a lot of things between all and nothing.

Most children are indoctrinated into the religious beliefs starting with their immediate family. This is true in most religions and cultures.

When they become adults, most of these indoctrinated children stay with those same religious beliefs.

See above.

Finally, a sensible comment.

Oops, back to Kindergarten. You actually drew the wrong conclusion from your own writings.

Shouting like a peeved little kindergartner. My, my.

However, since it works most of the time, it obviously is true. But it's OK if you don't understand that. Perhaps you never will.

 

In other words, you don't know. So that kind of makes your participation in the discussion rather pointless now, doesn't it?

 

The problem of man's inhumanity to man is not a religious one, for the most part. There are exceptions, such as islam, which promotes savagery to expand its influence. But most religions are concerned with the inner man.. spiritual enlightenment, self improvement, & becoming at peace with themselves & others. Most religions promote morality & positive human interactions.
And it is clear that the atheistic systems from recent history are not beacons of freedom & tolerance. Outliers were killed by the millions by stalin, mao, pol pot, & many other atheistic despots.. and this is just in the last 100 yrs or so. Plenty of irreligious tyrants have killed & oppressed people on their whims.. it was not a religious ideology driving them.. certainly not christianity.
So the narrative that 'christianity has caused all the evils in humanity' is just that: A false narrative, to smear & destroy christianity. Why is that? IMO, it is because the atheistic, progressive left cannot compete with the freedom & human equality that is presented in christian based principles. They hang on to those with lip service, but they cannot show how their ideology of elitism & naturalism can provide a basis for it. Elitism & naturalism do not imply human equality.. they promote the exact opposite.. that of a ruling elite with evolved superiority & intelligence, better suited to further the human race. The inferior, unwashed masses need to be managed & controlled by this elite. It is a return to the dark ages. It is a return to divine right of kings, but with the New Elite divinely chosen by the new god of Natural Selection. But this is all in THEIR minds, & is not a fact. It is just propaganda, & as the elite have used deception & propaganda before, to secure their power over their minions, so they do now. Nothing has really changed. Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.

 

How would you know? Do you think indoctrination comes with a disclaimer? 'Attention, Attention. The information you are about to receive is presented with an ideological agenda. It is not fact based, but we present it as such to deceive the simple minded.'
No, unfortunately, lies & propaganda do not come labeled as such, so how can you 'know' if the information you receive is accurate?

1. Be skeptical. Question authority. Ask, 'how do they 'know' this?
2. Research. Verify any information with research, especially if it is something that significantly affects your worldview.
3. Consider the alternatives. Don't be fooled with whoever is the loudest & has the most power.
4. Experts who go beyond empirical reasoning are just speculating like anyone else, & their opinion or belief has no more validity that anyone else's.
5. Make Truth your goal. ..not winning arguments, or being 'cool' with the hipsters. Reality is often obscured from arrogant fools.
6. Don't give up. Don't compromise.
7. Use the scientific method. The real one, not the phony one that has become popular in modern academia.

When i watch nature shows, i am struck by the constant indoctrination going on. They make wild claims they cannot possibly know, & present it as if it were proven scientific fact. So, yes. Both of those count very much as indoctrination.
If you watch a pbs show on global warming, what do you think you would conclude?
If you watch a pbs show on abortion, or when life begins, what worldview would you expect to be presented?
PBS & NPR are both progressive indoctrination megaphones. They do not present a balanced view of anything, so why would you expect them to do it with science? They don't. They present a caricature of science, buried under their ideology. I suspect you like to watch it for the confirmation they provide. It is like 'religious programming', but instead of studying the bible or quoran, they preach darwin & evolution, the cornerstone of atheistic ideology.

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Pot, kettle, black?

What, you can dish it out, but can't take it?

 

If by chance....I had dished things out your commentary would make sense.