The IQ gap between countries is no evidence of an alleged IQ gap between races

Discussion in 'Race Relations' started by AltLightPride, Mar 22, 2018.

  1. AltLightPride

    AltLightPride Well-Known Member

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    There is a measured IQ gap between countries and countries made predominantly of black and brown people have lower average IQ. That's a fact.

    However self-appointed race "realists" use that fact to claim that there is an IQ gap between races. This is totally abusive.

    You would only have evidence of an IQ gap between races if
    1) Different races in the same country had different average IQ's
    and
    2) The average IQ's in question were the same from one country to another (ie blacks in France have the same IQ as blacks in the US)

    My view is that literally zero evidence exists of this. The only measurement I know of for different races in the same country is for the US...a country with a history of segregation and frankly failed integration (just look at what's happening right now). So since segregation is literally having two countries inside of one, and America is still pretty self-segregated...you got nothing for two races in the same environment.

    If anything, the facts contradict this hypothesis. The average IQ of Africa is 70, the average IQ of blacks in America is 85. So the racial gap idea is already pretty weak because the two should be equal.

    Is there any measurement of the average IQ of blacks in Europe? Of blacks in Asia?

    If not then the whole debate needs to be put on hold because of lack of information.

    And until then, anyone claiming any knowledge of a "racial IQ gap" is pushing total quack nonsense.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
  2. DoctorWho

    DoctorWho Well-Known Member

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    Simple reference to Intelligence Quotient is not realistic because I.Q. is a facet of a much larger picture, there are too many other facets and factors involved in utilizing a persons I.Q. education, available resources such as Internet, Technologies, Culture, Employment, Housing, a poor person in a poor situation will test out at lower rates than a wealthy better educated person with complete access to education and technology.

    Every person has peaks and valleys related to I.Q. and abilities are related proportionally to I.Q. so that a person might be a great mechanic, but not read so well, or read well but not inclined to other manual labors, this is not indicative of low I.Q. it is indicative of differing abilities related to I.Q. and a new adjusted interactive computer run I.Q. test that takes other very important factors into account is needed.

    Each individual requires I.Q. testing based on their individuality and only an interactive computer program that analyzes answers and identifies peaks and valleys by means of a dynamic interactive A.I. computer program that can or will make an adjusted I.Q. test possible.
     
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  3. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    This is obviously just underdeveloped drivel the White Nationalists like to push to feel better about their miserably unintelligent existence. If it was indeed true that high average IQ equals wealth and that nations that do not have a high enough average are deemed to an enternity of poverty, then how come vast parts of Europe were poor up until the late 1800's?

    If it is indeed an issue of genetics, then would it not be the case that Whites have always had a high IQ? And if Whites have always had high IQ's, then how come they were poor in the past?

    Furthermore, if we apply the logic of High IQ = Genetic = Wealth, we have no way of explaining how it comes that East Asia was extremely poor and did not start prospering until the 1950's. IQ is therefore an extremely poor explanation to the sudden "Asian Boom" and a very poor hypothesis as a whole.

    Crap theory.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
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  4. rayznack

    rayznack Well-Known Member

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    If there is zero evidence, it is only because there is 0 evidence reported.

    Where IQ /academic achievement and IQ proxy data (eg. Crime) are available, the evidence overwhelmingly shows iq gaps. This is in fact widely known, and always blamed on systrmatic racial discrimination against black and brown people by whites. Never is addressed why northeast Asians always outperform whites in these same environments.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
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  5. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes those studies shows that asians have higher IQ averages than whites. But these are averages.

    Within a particular racial group there are greater variances in individual IQs than the variances between average racial IQs. So, it really is an individual thing too. We have blacks with high IQs and whites with lower ones. So it really depends upon the individual too.

    There are racial differences physically so why should there also not be differences in other areas as well? I am white and have no problem with asians having higher averages on IQ scores, or that a particular set of Jews have the highest average IQs. So what? I could never be a physicist and have no problem with that. But glad we have them! Just get over it.
     
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  6. rayznack

    rayznack Well-Known Member

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    Well, if the standard deviation in IQ for blacks is about the same as for whites (15), then northeast Asian-black IQ gp is greater than black standard deviation in IQ.

    Western society is cqlibrated on white cognitive ability and behavioral profile, so it should come as no surprise if many low IQ and low impulse control ethno-racial groups fail to thrive and become burdensome in the West.
     
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  7. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It isn't just western cognitive ability. It is the cognitive ability to succeed in a world of science and technology. And yet IQ scores reflect more than just cognitive ability. As Sam Harris talked about the IQ level also affects other things...like not having kids before you can afford them, and even social responsibility. It will determine if you are a druggy, on hard drugs, doomed to spiral downward in most cases. So it is more than just western cognitive ability that is indicative of higher IQs.
     
  8. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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    you should have a problem with it because it's all BS...skin colour does not determine IQ...IQ has a number of variables that determine IQ, education, environment, experience, health, culture...

    asians are no more intelligent than anyone else, they have a different culture where "education" is prioritized, the study habits of average asian student is far more strenuous then found in typical N American families that is why they excel in studies...
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2018
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  9. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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    if your wish is to perpetuate segregation the sure way to do it is to keep pushing the myth there are separate races....there is no biological classification for race,we are the same, we are all one species, all of us originated in africa, we are all related... we are one enormous family, all 7.5 billion of us...
     
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  10. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You are just contradicting the studies that have been done. There is evidence for this position if one is to believe Sam Harris who has referred to these studies.

    The trouble of course is that there are people like you who are not comfortable with what the research shows, and this elicits a knee jerk, while never researching the subject. And it is a very touchy subject given it can be used by racists. But the racists would have to ignore also what the studies show, in that there is much more variance within a racial group between individuals than there is between say hispanics and blacks. Or whites and asians.

    And so what is important is that all groups can have dumbasses and very intelligent individuals. And so race does not determine if you are a dumbass or very intelligent. The individual IQ determines this.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2018
  11. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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    which are smarter unicorns or mermaids??? yeah neither, that's right because they're both fictional...
    the same applies to basing IQ on race, race doesn't exist it's fictional so trying to connect intelligence to morphological differences is ludicrous...might as well say brunettes are smarter than blonds or green eyed people are smarted than blue eyed people, it's nuts...you may actually want to consult an expert in genetics instead of a racist and maybe an educational psychologist on intelligence...sam harris, he's neither a psychologist or a geneticist
     
  12. delade

    delade Well-Known Member

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    Remarkably, those with higher IQs even admit that their high IQ is the reason for their struggles in trying to deal with the slower population and living ways. Some are having a difficult time working at Google.

    It's like keeping a Lamborghini always running below 25 mph, which even mopeds can handle.


    Why they choose to work in those types of settings rather than use their IQ to program a high functioning app or program or game, is unknown by me.

    A group of them can get together and help the world by offering a new operating system, if they wanted to, I suppose.


    XP 11 SAFARE, the 100 series?








    But if you prefer high ends..

     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2018
  13. DarkSkies

    DarkSkies Well-Known Member

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    For some high IQ persons, they may have high intelligence in one area, but are completely lacking in it in another area. Take for example certain geniuses who have a terrible time socializing. It usually takes managers to harness their intelligence into something useful. So, if the higher IQ persons also had initiative, ambition, and vision, they could do their own apps and not feel confined to working with slower people or needing a manager to get something productive out of their genius.
     
  14. Taxonomy26

    Taxonomy26 Banned

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    You got it all backwards.
    Race is the real and long time tested IQ construct.

    Nationalities are meaningless recent fabricated constructs.
    Most sub-Saharan countries, most Euro countries, most NE Asians countries, have similar IQ's because they are the same races.

    ALL known evidence shows it's Race and IQ.
    All Data for 50-100 years.
    There is no second set of data contending it's upside down or equal, just apologism for the only evidence which shows classic racial hierarchy. (most simply 3 if you like).

    AltLitePride:
    "If anything, the facts contradict this hypothesis. The average IQ of Africa is 70, the average IQ of blacks in America is 85. So the racial gap idea is already pretty weak because the two should be equal."

    Um, no.
    American 'Blacks' are not a race but a relatively recent admixture of (on average) 75% sub-Saharan: 25% White.
    So the American 'Black' IQ is intermediate to the sub-Saharan 70 and white 100.
    It isn't, and shouldn't be the same as all 'black,' and is intermediate as genetics/race would predict.
    So while slavery was horrible, the new mix picked up some genetic IQ points.

    Lots of false assumptions.
    `
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
  15. AltLightPride

    AltLightPride Well-Known Member

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    I agree up to there. Identifiable human populations exist, and you can call them races.

    If you have a problem with people who believe "race is a social construct" then take it up with the liberals, I'm not one of them.

    This, however, I think is pure quackery.

    Actually, the cutural differences between different areas of the world were far larger in the past than they are today, because there were no means of transportation. Nations, or even provinces, were far more relevant in the past than they are today. It's the other way around, the only recently fabricated construct is globalization.


    My OP asked for evidence on two specific points. You provided zero evidence on that. Or on anything else for that matter.

    All you have here are baseless claims.

    If they're 25% white and 75% sub-saharan, then their average IQ should be 77.5. Not 85.

    Your genetic determinist claims would only be consistent if US blacks were 50% white, which is not what you said.

    And your fallacy is...shifting the burden of proof. I didn't make a single assumption. I stated the required evidence to prove your belief of an IQ gap between races. And none of it was provided to this day.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
  16. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Wonder if the difference in IQ between groups, has anything to do with the sh*tholes south of our borders as well as accounting for Africa? It takes higher IQs to create nations like here and europe? Just asking.
     
  17. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Obviously there are several factors that have to converge together to culminate in the creation of wealth.
    China has a high IQ, but remained relatively poor until about the 90s.

    The IQ in Eastern Europe is demonstratably lower than Western Europe (although not extremely so). Also, the gap in average IQ has traditionally not been that different between Northern and Southern Europe, yet since the start of the Twentieth Century Northern Europe has been wealthier than Southern Europe.

    Obviously IQ is only one of the necessary factors for creation of wealth.

    And sometimes not even then, there's a lot of smaller oil-producing countries that don't have high IQ levels yet have a high GDP.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
  18. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your second presumption isn't necessarily true - and does not stand up to logic.
    There are MULTIPLE reasons for this.

    First, IQ in a population can change over time, over the course of many generations, often due to natural selective pressures.
    Second, the population within a given race is far from homogenous. There probably was a selective bias where and from which type of people a certain country received most of their population of a given race. For example, Blacks in the U.S. originated from the West Coast of Africa.
    Lastly, sometimes there is a little bit of admixture. That is, the population of a given race living in a certain country, while it may be distinct, may not be entirely pure. That's certainly the case with the African American population in the U.S. or to a much greater extent in Brazil.

    Claiming that all the people of a given race have to have the same IQ to prove an IQ connection is as absurd as saying the population of China has to have a higher average IQ than Malaysia to prove that Asians in the U.S. have an IQ higher than the overall average in the country's population.

    In fact, amalgamating different ethnicities from different parts of the world into a single race probably glosses over most of the IQ differences, in many cases.
    (as the UK is so fond of doing, lumping Pakistanis and Chinese into the same category, probably trying to conceal certain statistics that don't look so good)
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
  19. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Ritter, a lack of singular correlation in the data does not automatically exclude the possibility of a certain factor playing an important role.

    For example, it could hypothetically be that IQ is generally the single most important factor is deciding a country's wealth, but in specific instances there are certain overriding factors which end up creating numerous countries which are exceptions. For example, a country like Kuwait which is rich because of oil. Or a country like China that was poor because of the Communist system holding back the economy, and because of overpopulation.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
  20. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You might want to see this old thread: it's not culture, it's not malnourishment, it's not income level

    looks like contrary to your claim, some evidence of differences does exist
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
  21. AltLightPride

    AltLightPride Well-Known Member

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    Blacks were brought in the US 400 years ago. Slavery and colonialism were all in the last few hundred years. Before that the West didn't even interact with Africa. Surely you're not claiming evolution on a timescale of a few hundred years are you?


    I don't see West Africa having a higher IQ average that the rest of subsaharan Africa, so I don't see how that explains the higher IQ of American blacks. The IQ in subsaharan Africa is pretty homogeneous.


    Agree, there is admixture, but again, it would require US blacks to be 50% black and 50% white in average for their IQ to be the average of the black and white IQ. Type "mulatto" in Google. American blacks don't look like that.


    If you're claming massive differences within one group then it's the whole racial classification that falls down.

    The Minnesota transracial adoption study? That's the best you got? That one's been debunked to death.

    I've read the entire paper. Did you? It makes a difference between children that were placed early in their family and children that were placed late. There's no upper limit on the placement age. Early placed black children have an average IQ of around 96. The only thing this study shows is the importance of early childhood for IQ, something many books on IQ already say.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
  22. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, natural selection can take place much faster than most people realize. There can be significant effects after only 5 or 6 generations.

    I'd even go so far as to say the generational effects of natural selection over 300-400 years on IQ levels probably override any inherent factors of race.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
  23. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There's massive differences within every group. It's statistical averages we are talking about.
     
  24. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Since our notions of what constitutes Intelligence has dramatically expanded since the nominal IQ test was devised, the issue of racial or national comparisons to determine which is "smarter" is pretty damn narrow.

    I bet there are any number of artists, musicians, novelists, etc who may have average IQs but are obviously able to produce work that others deem "genius".

    Athlete's have another kind of intelligence. There's lots of "dumb" players who have "game sense" and whose situational awareness and ability to respond is of the highest order. Their physical attributes don't determine their altitude as much as their "mental attributes".

    as to which race is smarter or dumber, who the hell cares? Who goes thru their lives judging people by some perceived level of "average intelligence" of that persons skin color or national origin? Oh right racists do.
     
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  25. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That's right, there are many different types of mental capabilities, and trying to condense measurement of intelligence down to a single numerical metric is a vast oversimplification and not going to be able to capture what is really going on well.

    It might not simply be brain size but brain differences.

    For example, it's often been hypothesized that East Asian brains are better at concentrating and self-discipline.
    Jewish brains are really good at making connections, abstract thinking and creativity.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018

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