The Nature of the Self

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by yardmeat, Aug 17, 2015.

  1. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2010
    Messages:
    56,138
    Likes Received:
    30,616
    Trophy Points:
    113
    So, as some of you may remember, I mentioned a while back that I have something called depersonalization disorder. As with depression and anxiety, everyone here has experienced depersonalization at some point or another in their lives. Perhaps you were in a car accident or experienced a great loss, and afterwards you felt, “unreal”, “out of body”, “robotic” or like your life was playing out as a movie and you were more of a passive observer than an active participant. Perhaps everything felt distant and somewhat unreal, as if you were observing everything through a glass.

    These are normal, and sometimes even appropriate reactions – almost as normal as depression or anxiety. Like depression and anxiety, these feelings are part of your brain’s defense mechanisms, and like depression and anxiety, they can go overboard and become a disorder. In my case, I went through these feelings several hours on end, every day for several years, without any discernable trigger. Have you ever heard of someone getting high and becoming paranoid that they would get “stuck this way”; well, that’s actually a real thing for those with depersonalization disorder.

    Things are looking a lot better now. With a lot of help, I’m down to only a couple of episodes a week, and they don’t last very long.

    As you can image, someone with such a disorder spends a lot of time thinking about the nature of the self. Psychologists call it “excessive rumination”. A major part of my therapy has been coming to grips with such thoughts. So, in the interest of my own curiosity and as a part of my continuing health, I’d like to have a discussion with members of the forum: What are you?

    Are you some sort of immortal soul that exists in a transient body that you will eventually shed?

    Are you a collection of your experiences and memories?

    Are you a sack of atoms and chemicals and, if so, what is it that comprises your sense of self?

    Is the notion of self inherently good? Inherently bad?

    This is more to get a discussion going than to put anyone on the spot for their beliefs, although I’ll likely mention philosophical objections, even if I agree with you. If you have any questions for me, don’t hesitate to ask; again, I’m doing this for the sake of conversation, not to put anyone’s feet to the fire.
     
  2. RPA1

    RPA1 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2009
    Messages:
    22,806
    Likes Received:
    1,269
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I am a conscious, sentient human being. I am not sure if my consciousness is or is not intrinsically linked to my corporal form. I'd like to think that at least part of my consciousness will live on after my demise. Perhaps we live on within the consciousnesses of others. Giving and receiving love could be the only thing that matters.

    Of course but then we are all born with a genetic template. How much that effects our memories and experiences I do not know.

    Consciousness

    I think that depends upon how much one contemplates on oneself. Remember what happened to Narcissus. I also think it is healthy to have a good self-image however I also think that having a good self-image depends strongly on interaction with others.

     
  3. Deckel

    Deckel Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2014
    Messages:
    17,608
    Likes Received:
    2,043
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I don't really know what self is. I suspect that we are not nearly as individual as we fashion ourselves to be. Lots of things are are--we are a biological organism, our sense of self is little more than a biological retention of chemical reactions, etc.

    I have experienced brief episodes of what you are talking about but it is more confusion like when I wake up and am in my current house and not the one I grew up in, etc., but it is more a matter of seconds. I couldn't imagine what life would be like if you were like that hours a day. I have never really experienced the way you describe in the sense that when I feel outside myself it is not the excessive rumination but the opposite--like my mind has blanked and needs to be reset to get working again. Almost like I cannot even put a single thought forward as opposed to having excessive thinking.
     
  4. cupid dave

    cupid dave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2012
    Messages:
    17,005
    Likes Received:
    80
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Interesting and very thoughtful responses.

    What we all are is "trapped."

    At birth, our mind was all that existed.
    We realize that we had basic needs, but we can not serve them.
    We are dependent.

    We have no idea that we have hands or feet, or even a body which is our own
    We discover our hands and feet, we begin to actually make out things we see as that information comes into our mind from some place not where we are, ... inside.

    What we are doing is using our senses to to discover things which we believe are actually outside of where ever our mind is.

    If it were not for pain, we might not ever take what we see seriously.
    It is like watching a video or a movie.
    We are only out there, in that reality, when agree to be out there.
    We could stay inside, as the autistic does or the Catatonic paranoid decides to do.

    People who smoke weed experience that effect of "staying inside."
    They are disconnected from Reality as they revert back to what was their infancy feel the disconnection as pleasure which separates them from the real world.
    Inside is what was called Eden in the Bible, a "place of pleasure," one that is "fenced off" or a garden.

    garden: [Hebrew: a fenced area]
    Eden: [Hebrew: a pleasurable place]
     
  5. Deckel

    Deckel Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2014
    Messages:
    17,608
    Likes Received:
    2,043
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Sounds to me if the "unreal" and "out of body" might have something connected to it that is not being discussed. Maladaptive daydreaming perhaps--creating a Walter Mitty world to hide in to avoid the reality one would find without it.
     
  6. RPA1

    RPA1 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2009
    Messages:
    22,806
    Likes Received:
    1,269
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I think maybe our mind does exist before birth because our brain is developed from the genetic template of our parents. We may not have an idea about our hands and feet however, that awareness is built-in but has to develop. Our senses are intrinsic to our brains as well, the connections are probably established genetically and as we develop, our environment (what we see and are taught) train us to regard them similar to others.

    I think your comment about pain causing us to see things seriously is interesting and probably spot-on.

    People that smoke weed alter their own consciousness and reality for either good or bad depending on their environment and finally their psychological make-up. The same holds true for any drug, alcohol, caffeine, cocaine, etc. Keeping some of these drugs illegal exacerbates their negative aspect. (IMO)

    I think 'inside' is a good thing. I think the way we get there is through focus. What we focus on is most important. I makes no sense to focus on ones self because all our experience comes from the outside. Our actions also effect our 'inside.' Better to focus on music, writing, family, keeping one self educated, join with others in social activities, or a myriad of other fulfilling activities to whatever level is comfortable and keeps one from too much self flagellation.

    The more our 'inside' is 'outside' the happier we will be. Easy to say, hard to do.
     
  7. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2010
    Messages:
    56,138
    Likes Received:
    30,616
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Not quite. That's not a bad suggestion, by any stretch, but these episodes don't involve daydreaming and they are as likely to occur during periods of elation as they are during periods of anxiety and depression.
     
  8. Deckel

    Deckel Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2014
    Messages:
    17,608
    Likes Received:
    2,043
    Trophy Points:
    113
    LOL it is something being investigated as a potential disorder. It wasn't a suggestion. In my experience, people with atypical senses of self more often have issues with others accepting them for who they are. They lack a sense of place within their real lives. What that sense of self is, who knows. Different things to different people I suppose, but the underlying problem is lack of a feeling of acceptance.
     
  9. cupid dave

    cupid dave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2012
    Messages:
    17,005
    Likes Received:
    80
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Walter is a good example of living inside a world that does not exist, which describes Paranoia.
    Paranoia represents a person who is doing just fine in a world with a window into our world.

    Its different from this case.
    This guy knows our world wants out, but has no other place to go.
    It makes him realize he is alone.

    My treatment would be to get him married.
    Then, when he escapes from the real world, going no where at all as usual, he will be happy to have escaped and not upset about his getaway to no where.
     
  10. cupid dave

    cupid dave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2012
    Messages:
    17,005
    Likes Received:
    80
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Pretty good.

    Freud and Carl Jung both believed that our Unconscious mind already knows much of what to expect in the real world, all coming from memories which have been genetically stored for that thinking process.
    I think you are correct in saying we know about arms and legs and seeing and hearing, etc, but we do not know where or what exactly they are r how they work, or which ones are ours, etc.
    Hands and feet are there, and we discover them as we also remember how they operate.

    But the important thing is that we are discovering the world, including ourselves as part of that work.
    And from the first moment on, we are actually explaining, from our senses to our mind, what Reality must be, as it is based upon the truth we are finding to be correct.
    Truth is the light into the Reality which is puzzle.
    It is a puzzle we need discover, because of pain which makes it mandatory.

    Hunger gives us pains.
    Thirst gives us pain.
    But we discover pleasure also exists.

    Eureka!
    The Pleasure Principle is leading us here, Pain vs Pleasure is a psychological archetype called the Id.
     
  11. Deckel

    Deckel Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2014
    Messages:
    17,608
    Likes Received:
    2,043
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I don't know that Walter Mitty is necessarily about paranoia so much as it an unhealthy level of avoidance, but it has been quite awhile since I read it. In the OP's case, no idea. If it is not organic, then it is perplexing, but they said the daydreaming was not present with them. Marriage as a solution to a mental issue--what a brilliant idea. With a 50% divorce rate, one more won't matter. Roll the dice. Nothing will help you find yourself like your spouse taking everything you own and having to start over LOL
     
  12. cupid dave

    cupid dave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2012
    Messages:
    17,005
    Likes Received:
    80
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Right.
    A wife would solve the problem, especially if the wife was interesting enough to want to be with her.

    Look at all the identity that could follow here.

    Lover
    Friend
    Husband
    Father
    Wage earner
    Home owner
    Etc
     
  13. Deckel

    Deckel Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2014
    Messages:
    17,608
    Likes Received:
    2,043
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Husband is the only thing you listed that requires a wife in case you didn't notice.
     
  14. cupid dave

    cupid dave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2012
    Messages:
    17,005
    Likes Received:
    80
    Trophy Points:
    48
    ... and he'd be too broke financially to even want to go anywhere but where he was.

    But I recognize the feeling he is having, in that it is more like having died but still here.
    Its like he has had everything stop in his life and there is nothing to see plainly in the future because he sees no fur-ture, and the past has no more meaning.

    He is at dead stop.
    He has nothing to go back to. b
    But no apparent existence in the future at that moment in time.
    He's alone.

    He's sort of dead to the world outside.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Yeah, but if the wife is not a friend, that will not be good.
     
  15. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2010
    Messages:
    56,138
    Likes Received:
    30,616
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Oh, I'm well aware of its existence. Even if it isn't a disorder unto itself, it's certainly the symptom of several disorders. I wasn't suggesting otherwise; just pointing out that it isn't what's involved with what I was discussing.

    I'm sure that is the case for a lot of people. In my case, acceptance or even a feeling of acceptance hasn't been an issue. A sense of place within my life? That's more accurate -- to put it more accurately, it was a constant inability to be able to stop thinking and contemplating such a place, or to find lasting satisfaction in an answer. A big part of this was this idea that my "self" had to involve some sort of unchanging essence or identity for my "soul". Letting go of that and concentrating on my relationships, along with mindfulness exercises, helped a lot.
     
  16. Deckel

    Deckel Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2014
    Messages:
    17,608
    Likes Received:
    2,043
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Sounds a lot like people experience when they retire. They lose the places that have defined so much of their time, and almost everybody they know isn't retired and they realize those people have no time-filling place in their lives for the retiree. One of my retired neighbors on the street crawls around on his hands and knees every day pick crabgrass out of his yard to fill his day when I freaking $50 bag of weedkiller would do it and take less than an hour to put down and water in. Another one on the other end is doing something completely bizarre. He bought a wooded lot, cleaned it off, and he now goes around finding junk in people's trash that he uses to build things like taking bed headboards and making gates, doorways, arches and crap to nowhere. It looks like something out of Alice in Wonderland, and not in a good way.
     
  17. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2010
    Messages:
    18,423
    Likes Received:
    886
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    According to webmd:

    Depersonalization disorder is marked by periods of feeling disconnected or detached from one's body and thoughts (depersonalization).​

    If the psychological community believes such detachment is a sign of mental illness ipso facto, we have yet more reason to question the sanity of its members.

    The primary symptom of depersonalization disorder is a distorted perception of the body. The person might feel like he or she is a robot or in a dream.​

    The distinction between feeling like a robot and feeling out of control is, I submit, not substantive; and there are very many people who are in fact out of control. So I'm not sure why the perception of being out of control is problematic in those who are out of control.

    Consciousness is never altered positively by chemicals.
     
  18. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2010
    Messages:
    56,138
    Likes Received:
    30,616
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The psychological community does not not consider such detachment a sign of mental illness ipso facto. Such episodes, like the occasional experience of depression or anxiety under the appropriate circumstances, are a normal part of almost everyone's psychological experience. It's only when it becomes frequent enough that it begins disrupting the patient's life that they begin considering it a possible disorder, and even then it isn't under all circumstances.
     
  19. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2013
    Messages:
    31,814
    Likes Received:
    13,377
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I am Overlord of the Universe and I am almost ready to come into power.
     
  20. RPA1

    RPA1 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2009
    Messages:
    22,806
    Likes Received:
    1,269
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes it is...Otherwise pain medication would not be given. The brain is a chemical factory.
     
  21. Deckel

    Deckel Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2014
    Messages:
    17,608
    Likes Received:
    2,043
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That would make you the underlord of the Universe if you have yet to come into power wouldn't it?
     
  22. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2013
    Messages:
    41,184
    Likes Received:
    16,180
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    You're posting about "excessive rumination" which is wasting time on a board that is, in fact, mainly a way to waste time for people with too much of it on their hands.

    You're not just killing time, you're gruesomely slaughtering it

    Try to remember you will probably only have about 75 years. , 75 perfect summers, 75 lovely autumns, 75 winters of matchless beauty and 75 springs to fall in love in.

    Of course you're not real, you are but a figment of God's imagination, and the only thing that will determine whether he keeps you on will be whether you were one of his happy thoughts or not. Enjoy.
     
  23. TBryant

    TBryant Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2011
    Messages:
    4,146
    Likes Received:
    106
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    I guess the most simple answer is that the self is what decides. It takes all the various inputs from the external world and organizes them into a reality. Effectively it decides what reality is.

    There is experience and emotion, which can shape how the self perceives, but they are actually inputs which the self usually manipulates depending on its nature.

    It is very difficult for the self to contemplate its own existence since its primary function is to judge and filter sensation. At best one can get a vague outline by short circuiting the selfs functions and attempt to examine, in as detached a way as possible, the reality it has created.

    This seems to also be the nature of your disorder. Once a person passes through the illusion that the world is merely external it can be difficult to make sense of things in the same way that others seem to. The key is to slow down, there is absolutely no need to perfectly understand anything. Retreat to pragmatism. In other words, stop worrying about things other than do they work, or do they not work.
     
  24. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2010
    Messages:
    18,423
    Likes Received:
    886
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    It hardly makes sense to lump all those together, since the last two are signs of psychological distress while the first is not.

    Detachment doesn't do that, the discovery that one is out of control does.

    Medication which does nothing more than relieve physical pain does not alter consciousness any more than hearing is improved by turning down a radio.

    Which might be interesting were there any compelling reason to believe the brain is the seat of human consciousness.
     
  25. RPA1

    RPA1 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2009
    Messages:
    22,806
    Likes Received:
    1,269
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    When someone is 'brain dead' they are considered legally dead. That being said, I do believe that consciousness may exist beyond the brain.

    http://in5d.com/the-heart-has-its-own-brain-and-consciousness/

    Many believe that conscious awareness originates in the brain alone. Recent scientific research suggests that consciousness actually emerges from the brain and body acting together. A growing body of evidence suggests that the heart plays a particularly significant role in this process.

    Medication alters the nerve/brain communication and, in doing so, alters consciousness. Too much opiate will cause detachment syndrome.
     

Share This Page