The "premise" of BLM

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Golem, May 30, 2023.

  1. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    In another thread (this is off-topic there) a poster claims that you don't have to hate black people in order to disagree with the central premise of BLM.

    The central premise of BLM is simply that the life of black people matter just as much as the life of white people. I don't know if you could call disagreeing with this "hate". But it's very close.

    The fact that black people are disproportionately mistreated and killed by cops is supported by statistics (links at the bottom, if you want to check them). The "central premise" has nothing to do with the conspiracy theories that white supremacists like Tucker Carlson have made up: that there is some "hidden agenda" to promote Critical Race Theory and "wokeness" which mean... because....

    Actually they never explain what the terms mean or why they would want to "promote" them. But that doesn't matter. Conspiracy theories don't have to make sense.

    Here are some references
    https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/
    https://jech.bmj.com/content/75/4/394
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/
    https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w22399/w22399.pdf

    And the following thread contains many many more
    http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/what-does-critical-race-theory-teach.589535/
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2023
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  2. independentthinker

    independentthinker Banned

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    The premise of BLM is much like the premise of the Democratic party. Let me buy your vote, donate money to me, and then after I'm elected I won't do squat for you.
     
  3. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Black Lives Matter is a slogan, not a premise. The premise behind BLM is that systemic racism leads to disproportionate black men being killed by police ( or some similar iteration). The slogan (or more accurately hashtag) is designed to highlight that premise.

    What is Black Lives Matter and what are the aims? - BBC News

    One can very easily question the notion that systemic racism leads to disproportionate killing of black men by police, and still believe that black lives in general matter. Your apparent position that opposing BLM means that one thinks that black lives dont matter is nonsensical and WAY off the mark.

    That is like saying if one is pro-choice in opposition to pro-life, that they therefore are in opposition to life in general. Pro-life is the slogan, and the premise is to oppose abortion being legal. You seem confused by this distinction and are taking the slogan far too literally.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2023
  4. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    BLM was created from personal experience of black people: People like the mother who has nightmares about her son being shot by a cop. The black driver who fears the cop will misinterpret him reaching for their license and registration for a gun.... The black guy who was stopped by police after a robbery because he was the ONLY black person there. Most black people don't stop to think WHY they are mistreated. They just have learned from personal experience that they ARE. It makes no difference if the explanation by Race Theory (that cops are racist) or Critical Race Theory (that cops are not racist, but the system is built that way) is the correct one. They just KNOW they are treated different.

    And the fact that scientific studies prove them RIGHT is purely coincidental as it relates to the movement itself.

    BLM is not an organized group (some parts might be loosely organized). It's just a hashtag that people who feel this mistreatment coalesce around. So you are correct when you say that it's just a slogan. A slogan that just happens to correspond to reality.
     
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  5. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I am glad that you seemingly have dropped the whole premise is that black lives matter and can now see that it is merely a slogan.

    My wife's step sister is married to a black guy, lets call him John. He seems like a decent enough guy generally speaking.

    A year or so ago, his wife fell down the stairs late at night and was bleeding profusely from her forehead and had a huge black eye. They drove to the ER so that she could get stitches. On the way to the hospital, he was pulled over for speeding. When the cop came to the car, he told them to continue on to the hospital. The cop followed them, and after she was being treated, he started to question the husband to find out exactly what happened. Clearly he was trying to figure out if this was domestic violence.

    John was absolutely livid, and wrote up a very long facebook post to explain how he was accosted because he was black and how his wife was hassled because of the color of his skin. He proudly boasted about how uncooperative he was to their investigation. He actually tried storming away and not answering their questions which only served to escalate and make them detain him. His attitude is what made this situation far worse than it had to be.

    But was he questioned solely because he was black? Or was this just what policemen do when they encounter a woman with a black eye that is bleeding profusely that is with her husband? I happen to know that police MUST follow up on EVERY potential domestic violence incident. If they were to overlook this, and then further harm happened to that lady, they would be liable for any harm that happened to her. I know this because I asked a policeman friend of mine about this very incident.

    John is absolutely POSITIVE however that he experienced systemic racism. Nothing that anyone says could possibly change his mind. I am equally positive that police do this in every potential case of domestic violence regardless of their skin color.

    You say that they have learned from personal experience that they are mistreated, but I would submit that in this case, being constantly told that blacks are mistreated is what has him convinced that he was mistreated.

    Just because a lot of black people are convinced that they are always getting screwed by police, does not ACTUALLY mean that they are and this case is a perfect illustration of that principle. Perception becomes some people's reality, and this perception is being pushed as hard as it possibly can be pushed. You seem to think that if a black person says it, then they must be right, but that is not necessarily the case. The more that you stir sh*t, the more it stinks.
     
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  6. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    I have always said it's a slogan.

    http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/demystifying-black-lives-matter.596853/

    And the main premise of the slogan is what it says: that black lives also matter. And THAT is what you claim you disagree with.

    As for your anecdote, what BLM is talking about is way more than being questioned for their wife having a black eye. They're talking about them being frisked (sometimes violently) more often, arrested more often, falsely accused and falsely convicted more often.... sometimes even SHOT.

    This is not something they brag about in Facebook. It's something that costs their liberty and often their life! And you can see the mistreatment even in cases where it DOESN'T cost their life.

    Studies, including the one YOU referenced (which I included in the OP) say that ,in fact, they ARE. So it's not just that they are "convinced" (in the dismissive way you use the term). They FEEL reality in their own flesh. And people like you refusing to even LOOK at the overwhelming evidence does not help us solve the problem.

    Could we call this attitude "hate"? I don't know, but I understand anybody who is inclined to call it that.
     
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  7. kriman

    kriman Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    They are disproportionately "mistreated and killed" by the police for the simple reason that they tend to be more violent and tend to resist arrest more often than white people.
     
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  8. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We seem to have different ways of saying the same thing then - all lives matter: white, black, hispanic, Chinese, Indian, Indigenous Australian, British, Angolan, Czech, Cantonese, Nigerian - the set of all human lives matters.
     
  9. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    There's nothing wrong with not liking a radical terrorist organization whose leaders have done nothing but enrich themselves at the cost of those they are supposedly helping.

    All lives matter and if you can't say that then you might just have a problem with race.

    This op is thoroughly grounded in binary thinking
     
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  10. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    Why?
     
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  11. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    That's the way white supremacists use to convince people to ignore the question. Sorry to see you fell for the ruse.
     
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  12. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Numbers that show that blacks represent an outsized percentage of police shootings relative to their overall population size do NOT automatically mean that this is racism, yet that is the only explanation that you will entertain.

    There are a lot of numbers that exist that do not follow precise population numbers that are not due to racism.

    What about blacks committing 50% plus of all violent crimes as an example? Most logical people can look at that and recognize that there are nuances there that make this not follow population numbers. There are cultural/economic issues that we all recognize and acknowledge, but when it comes to police killing, the ONLY possibility that anyone on the left sees is pure systemic racism. Other potential reasons exist that are not racism, but when the left sees a disproportionate number, they somehow take this to mean this is unassailable proof that systemic racism is at play. It is as if you pretend that there is nothing culturally different that could possibly be at play.

    You are talking about police shootings. Most police shootings are justified with the person brandishing a weapon. The notion that a justified shooting happens far greater in a group that accounts for 50% of all violent crimes while only being 13% of the population is not all that far fetched for reasons that have nothing to do with systemic racism. You can show all of the statistics that you like, but the reality, is that those statistics do NOT tell the entire story. There is nuance involved, and within that nuance is the true debate.
     
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  13. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Since blacks are a subset of all humans, it directly addresses the question. Slander noted.
     
  14. kriman

    kriman Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Cultural difference. However, it makes little difference. They are creating own problem and they will have to solve their own problem. Failure to recognize that they have a problem just further exacerbates the problem.
     
  15. ToughTalk

    ToughTalk Well-Known Member

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    That's strange. That's the same premise as all lives matter. Go figure?
     
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  16. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    But you're not supposed to point out any obvious facts like that because that makes you a racist.

    A black man's wife just came on a local Facebook group page the other night complaining that the service in our hospital ER was subpar and that they get rude when you " go off on them "...... Imagine that...

    Then another lady piped in and she said oh you mean the black guy that came out of the exam room screaming profanities at the top of his lungs and scaring my children?

    Now we hear the rest of the story as if " going off on them " was not a clue.

    Then he proceeded to call the lady some very nasty profanities which have since been deleted.

    My point with this anecdote is related to your point above.... When you have a sense of entitlement and you get angry and combative at the drop of a hat your results might be a little less than satisfactory regardless of what interaction it happens to be in public.

    Especially so when it comes to interactions with the police.

    I'm just going to tell the raw truth here and I don't care who likes it or doesn't like it.

    A good percent of black people tend to be very difficult to deal with due to their sense of entitlement and how quickly they are moved to anger and violence.

    Now of course this does not apply to all of them but it applies to enough of them because their behavior makes it apply to them. There is a reason that stereotypes exist.

    I went with my girlfriend to one of her doctor's appointments today and we ended up waiting almost an hour and a half but at no point did I think that I should emerge from the exam room and make an ass of myself publicly and then go home and have my girlfriend bash them on Facebook and then call another woman filthy profanities who did not agree with my temper tantrum.
     
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  17. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    The only relevant fact to BLM is that black people are disproportionately mistreated.

    "Cultural/economic issues"? What a revelation! So you're saying it's the SYSTEM. Hmmm.... why didn't anybody think of that! You should write a book. You could call it something like... "Systemic Racism".

    Wow! So you're saying that Race Theory... i.e., the theory that cops mistreat blacks because cops are racists, might be...gasp!.... WRONG?

    You are creating a new theory to replace Race Theory. Since you criticize Race Theory, why not call it.... Critical Race Theory

    We are witnesses to an intellectual revolution in the making!
     
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  18. Bullseye

    Bullseye Well-Known Member

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    Weeeellllll, no. BLM premise is that police use force, including deadly force far more often with Blacks, among other things.
    Blind acceptance of "statistics" leads nowhere.
    And you know that how?
    No irony that you're espousing conspiracy theories yourself.
    On of the major fallacies of "statistics" that you seem to ignore that distinct samples of the population don't necessarily display the same distribution in every trait as the entire population.
     
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  19. Bullseye

    Bullseye Well-Known Member

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    BLM IS an organization with a hierarchy of leadership.
     
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  20. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Cultural/economic does NOT automatically mean systemic racism. If more blacks are culturally violent as is evident by the violent crime numbers, that in no way is indicative of systemic racism. Such a claim is downright silly.

    If you are going to point to more blacks being hit by a baton ( made up statistic), that could be systemic racism, or it COULD be that more blacks resist arrest. The numbers alone do NOT tell you the whole story.

    There are nuances here that you and your race-baiting brethren absolutely REFUSE to consider because it does not push the narrative that you want to push.
     
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  21. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    And they all got filthy rich off the rubes
     
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  22. perotista

    perotista Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I get the premise and agree with it. Black lives matter as much as any other race, white, Asian, Hispanic etc. The problem, the same with the slogan defund the police, Black Lives Matter left the impression on many that they were stating only black lives matter. Just like Defund the Police, the slogan didn’t mention anything about reform, just defunding or doing away with the police. I pointed this out many times on both BLM and DFTP on this site. It’s a PR nightmare as neither says what is meant. Most folks can’t or won’t read in-between the lines or take it as what is implied, but not stated.


    You still have a lot of folks today that think BLM means only black lives matter, no one else’s life. That is what it says, it doesn’t say black lives matter also or too or something akin to that. Most Americans aren’t going to do any research to find out what is really meant by BLM or DFTP, they’re going to run with what is stated in plain English. Then a lot of folks get upset when people take what is stated in plain English instead of the implied or hidden meaning. This is just the way it is.
     
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  23. ToughTalk

    ToughTalk Well-Known Member

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    It's not "mistreated" if you are committing violent crimes.
     
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  24. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately the left tends to drop the ball with some of its mottos. I think there is a need to employ an advertising agency that can sample opinions to gage the mottos appeal to a broader audience. With that said too many on the right are quick to misinterpret and become offended. For this reason I think the left needs to put more thought into their mottos. For instance who was the brainiac that came up with defund the police? That went over like a Led Zeppelin even with many on the left.

    But then again perhaps this has been by design and the powers that be in the left simply want to create a battlecry for the tribe?
     
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  25. Turtledude

    Turtledude Well-Known Member Donor

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    and if these people really believe "black lives matter" the first place to start is not with Police killing black (usually but not always, THUGS), but rather with the black young men who kill more blacks in a month than white supremacists and "racist" cops kill in years
     
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