The US did not win the war against Japan in WW II.

Discussion in 'Warfare / Military' started by Thingamabob, Aug 13, 2018.

  1. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yeah, if we would have lost the war against Japan and Germany we would be driving Japanese and German cars today in America.
     
  2. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
     
  3. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Why would they do that? It makes no sense.

    Implosion is the only way to gain the heat and pressure needed to start a fission reaction in plutonium. You do not need to do that with uranium, and only adds yet another layer of failure to the system.

    Dr. Oppenheimer at one time did propose the use of a small bomb that used uranium deuteride that was detonated by an implosion, but it was abandoned by 1943.

    This would have been yet another failure however if they had tried it. Shots Ruth and Ray in Operation Upshot-Knothole ( 1953 ) did use implosion triggered uranium devices. Both of these were "Fizzles", only resulting in yields of around 200 tons.

    In purely fission devices, it defies all logic to make a weapon that uses uranium implosion. Especially during a time of war. All of your efforts need to go into repeating the successes you already had, not try to branch off into entirely new areas. And especially since the supply of uranium was already smaller than that of plutonium.
     
  4. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    Wrong. Japan's request that Hirohito retain unlimited dictatorial power was flatly rejected.

    Hirohito was subordinate to MacArthur.
     
  5. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    Implosion compression dramatically reduces the required critical mass.

    The amount of uranium required to power one gun-type bomb could power four (or more) implosion bombs.
     
  6. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    But they did not have to do that. As already stated, once they realized that implosion plutonium bombs worked, that is where all of the effort of future tests went to. Plutonium was much faster to manufacture than it was to extract U-235.

    We did indeed make an implosion U-235 bomb. One. It was shot Yoke, as part of Operations Sandstone in 1948. It was 1 of 3 shots in the Sandstone program. Each of them used a variant of the Mk3 Fat Man bomb, 2 with plutonium and 1 with a uranium core.

    Contrary to popular thought, uranium itself was almost never used in making nuclear weapons. Plutonium is much faster and easier to refine, and that is why other than the 25 Little Boy units made for the Navy, all future weapon designs were variants of the plutonium Fat Man (now known as the MK3) design. Plutonium weapons, not uranium. In the time it took to refine enough material for a single U235 bomb, you could refine enough plutonium to make 4-6 P239 weapons.

    The main issue came in making the bomb itself. The implosion was a much more complex design, more prone to theoretical failure than the simple gun method of uranium. And until Trinity, a plutonium bomb was purely theoretical. The physics however of the uranium bomb were known and understood.

    And the Soviets followed a similar path. They made a single implosion uranium bomb, and then all of their other tests and weapons used plutonium.

    With the proof of the plutonium bomb, uranium was seen as a "dead end" technology. The Navy used them for a few years as the Little Boy device was the only one that could be fitted to the P-2 Neptune (Fat Man was to large and heavy for use on carrier based aircraft).
     
  7. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    It would have been a terrible waste to squander four (or more) A-bombs worth of uranium in a single weapon.

    This is incorrect. The larger-yield implosion bombs all used uranium cores. Plutonium has too great of a spontaneous fission rate.

    If a bomb has too much fissile material, spontaneous fission will start the chain reaction going before the fissile material has been adequately compressed, and that will limit the yield.

    Uranium's much lower spontaneous fission rate allows for multiple critical masses to be compressed in an implosion device without the chain reaction being started too early.

    Probably the highest yield plutonium device was the 120kt French MR31 warhead.

    The US Mk6 got to 160kt when a uranium core was in it. The Mk18 used uranium cores to get to 500kt.
     
  8. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Banned

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    This is a silly OP: The US did not win the war against Japan in WW II. Of course the Allies won the war.
     
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  9. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Banned

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    Italy surrendered, period. Nazi Germany was crushed, its people held in virtual captivity for several years, and its top leadership executed. Japan withdrew from the Pacific and all of mainland China from Burma to Manchuria and Korea, and was occupied by foreign troops with McArthur succeeding the Emperor and his executive branch as the CEO of Japan for six years: yeah, Japan surrendered.

    Yes, the US and its allies won the war.
     
  10. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Take it up with Washington, Silly Boy. They set the standard of acceptable surrender and failed to achieve it. Your bark has no teeth and you are yapping in the wrong direction. Take your complaint to Washington for lying to you and for restricting your education to be susceptible to deny the facts right in front of your face. :nerd:
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2019
  11. AZBob

    AZBob Banned

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    Yeah, you don’t know what you’re talking about.
     
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  12. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Banned

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    Thank you for your answer, which is essentially wrong. The facts support that AZBob is right, hands down. down.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2019
  13. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    That is incorrect. The standards of acceptable surrender were the Potsdam Proclamation.

    Japan was forced to accept the Potsdam proclamation.
     
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  14. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Which never demanded an unconditional surrender. Only a unconditional surrender of their armed forces. Which they did.

    Point this out over and over, but he ignores it every time. And also will ignore any demand for when the Allied Powers asked for a true "unconditional surrender".

    Is why I gave up on this thread ages ago. Is absolutely pointless.
     
  15. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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    The same terms that were ultimately accepted were precisely those that MacArthur informed FDR about even before the Yalta conference. Feelers were out and the prospect for an earlier piece was there, but FDR had no interest in such things. He wanted to test his new toy, and to do that he needed to incinerate as many women children and elderly civilians as possible. Truman ended up carrying out his final bloody desire.
     
  16. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We demand an unconditional end of this thread !!!

    Or the thread will be nuked !!!
     
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  17. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    And once again reality breaks away from fantasy.

    First of all, Yalta? Really, Yalta?

    Yalta had not a damned thing to do with the Pacific War. Yalta involved the USSR, UK and US and was about the end of the war in Europe.

    Obviously what you are thinking of is the Potsdam Conference. And what came from it, the Potsdam Declaration. That was a sub-conference of the larger Potsdam Conference, in which China, the UK and US discussed the end of the Pacific War.

    These conferences were over 6 months apart, and discussed 2 very different things.

    Wow, you simply never cease to amaze me. Next time try to take the time to actually do a little research, instead of badly trying to make it up as you go along.

    Oh, and those "feelers" for peace? They all came from Japan. They tried to get several nations involved in declaring an Armistice, but nobody was interested in helping them put it forward. First they tried the Swiss, but were quickly rebuffed. They then tried the Holy See, and were similarly rebuffed. Finally they tried the Soviets, and were pretty much stalled since Stalin was already planning on his own land grab at the end of the war.

    But none of the Allied Powers would have accepted the Japanese Armistice even if somebody had presented it. They basically wanted a quo ante bellum,and that was acceptable to none of the Allies by that point. And every country or group approached by Japan knew this. Even trying to present it would have affected their own relations with the Allied Powers.

    Among the demands Japan tried to ask for was no demilitarization, holding their own war crime trials, return of all Japanese land held prior to 1941, no occupation, and a mandate that none of the Allied Powers be allowed to place an embargo on them again.

    Yea, no wonder they found nobody willing to present that load of coprolite for them. Basically they wanted to hit the reset button and return everything to November 1941. Oh, and guarantee that they could never again get an embargo if they act badly again.

    And it had nothing to do with FDR. Remember, China and the UK had equal veto power for any peace agreement. And after almost a decade of Japanese atrocities in China, could you see them agreeing to such an agreement? Or the actions in Burma and treatment of British POWs and civilians could you see London agreeing to that nonsense?

    Or our own ignoring of the atrocities in the Philippines? The 1 million Philippine dead? The Bataan Death march? Even there, combat operations really did not end until after the surrender, a year after the liberation. And the last holdout did not surrender until 1974.
     
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  18. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Banned

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    Mushroom is right, and unkotare is not right.
     
  19. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You were warned


    [​IMG]
     
  20. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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    Wrong. Crack a book once in a while.

    "Regarding the Far East, a secret protocol stipulated that, in return for the Soviet Union’s entering the war against Japan within “two or three months” after Germany’s surrender, the U.S.S.R. would obtain from Japan the Kuril Islands and regain the territory lost in the Russo-Japanese War of 1904–05 (including the southern part of Sakhalin Island), and the status quo in pro-Soviet Outer Mongoliawould be maintained. Stalin agreed to sign a pact of alliance and friendship with China."

    https://www.britannica.com/event/Yalta-Conference


    You needn't have revealed your ignorance on this matter. The point was to indicate when MacArthur informed fdr about the overtures about which he had been informed. No one now knows what might or might not have come from following up on these overtures to surrender prior to many of the bloodiest battles of the war, but a possibility seems to have existed in which the bloodthirsty and racist fdr had no interest.
     
  21. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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    The terms suggested ended up being precisely the ones we accepted anyway after little truman carried out scumbag fdr's final bloody wish.
     
  22. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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    If the war had ended earlier and the timing were different, fdr might have felt compelled to try out his little toy on one or many of his concentration camps in the US. (sarcasm - sort of)
     
  23. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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    .
     

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  24. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    The trouble with that is, it never happened.


    Actually it was the government of Japan who had no interest.

    The government of Japan did not try to talk to the US about surrender until after both A-bombs had already been dropped.


    The A-bombs were dropped on military targets.


    Given that those overtures were entirely imaginary, nothing at all could ever have come from them.
     
  25. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    The terms suggested in the imaginary peace offer that was never proffered.
     

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