Torture, is it wrong?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Elcarsh, Apr 25, 2018.

  1. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    Probably not true. What a senate committee says is normally worth ignoring. I can't believe you take the federal government swamp seriously.

    I believe that.

    When they are found guilty of torture.

    I find it offensive that you denigrate people who might disagree with you with this sort of stuff. You can do better than that.
     
  2. Guyzilla

    Guyzilla Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I will trade ya a coupla lives, for my heart.
     
  3. ButterBalls

    ButterBalls Well-Known Member

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    Bro my Pops had the same thing you're dealing with, he made 83! And he'd easily made 95 but for a botched valve replacement where it took longer then expected and part of the heart that was laying on his chest "Stuck" to the skin and they ended up with seven bypasses to repair the crushed and torn arteries :(

    Be positive brah!
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2018
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  4. Elcarsh

    Elcarsh Well-Known Member

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    And in that case, one's principles aren't principles, they're simple ideas discarded out of convenience.

    Did I mention torture doesn't work?
     
  5. Elcarsh

    Elcarsh Well-Known Member

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    You don't happen to have read the UN's declaration of human rights, or the US constitution, or for that matter the Geneva convention agreements?

    You know, all those things that the US are forced to follow?
     
  6. Elcarsh

    Elcarsh Well-Known Member

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    Why the hell wouldn't it be wrong in other countries?

    But Guantanamo Bay isn't exactly run by Denmark, is it? Are you confused by why the US is the primary target of this thread?
     
  7. Elcarsh

    Elcarsh Well-Known Member

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    Alright then, put your money where your mouth is; let's see your evidence. Which cases are there where torture has resulted in obtaining accurate, reliable, verifiable, and useful information?

    Oh, interested in due process all of a sudden. You didn't really seem to give much of a **** about that when people were tortured in Guantanamo Bay without ever even being charged with a crime.

    Hmmm, no, I cannot, for one simple reason: people who think torture is right are morally inferior to me. I won't lie and pretend otherwise.

    Besides, you find it "offensive"? That's your problem, not mine.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2018
  8. Elcarsh

    Elcarsh Well-Known Member

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    So it's egotism that's making you support torture? That's...not better.
     
  9. Elcarsh

    Elcarsh Well-Known Member

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    Quibbling; the desperate last resort of a person who knows they are wrong and can't actually defend their views.

    First, that's not true. It's nonsense that the US government made up to justify its illegal acts.

    Second, how do you determine that they are, in fact, "out of uniform combatants", if they are never charged with anything? How do you know that without due process?
     
  10. Elcarsh

    Elcarsh Well-Known Member

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    Format your post properly.
     
  11. perotista

    perotista Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Interesting, principles take precedence over innocent lives.
     
  12. Elcarsh

    Elcarsh Well-Known Member

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    Well, it is interesting. Tell me, are you prepared to do anything whatsoever to save innocent lives?

    Also, torture doesn't work.
     
  13. God & Country

    God & Country Well-Known Member

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    Were you there?
     
  14. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Is insults really all you've got, because this is the second time you've quoted me with nothing but short bursts of personal crap. Why don't you try and add something to the thread instead of trolling
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2018
  15. Elcarsh

    Elcarsh Well-Known Member

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    I do apologize about that one, it was disrespectfully put. So, sorry.

    What I really wanted to know, is torture something that you feel would be especially an option to save the lives of you or your family in particular? More than other people, that is.

    Addendum: I did start the thread, now all we're doing is killing time waiting for Questerr to come in and set everything right.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2018
  16. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No, I prefer the treats option, but believe there are situations where more aggressive behaviour is needed to save lives (not necessarily my own or just my family). By completely disallowing torture I believe we handicap our investigators and soldiers in the fight against terror. I also believe people who do not see the need for it, in any scenario, have never been faced by the possibility of death or losing someone close to them (in a violent manner - not talking illness), this is why they cannot understand why anyone would approve of torture.

    For the sake of twisting what I just posted, let me reiterate I do not like to see people suffer, the exact opposite. Which is why I believe when you are dealing with individuals who do not hesitate in killing and maiming thousands of innocent people, force should be met with force for the sake of the innocent.
     
  17. Crawdadr

    Crawdadr Well-Known Member

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    Torture is wrong and a waste of our time. The USA should be better then that.
     
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  18. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Forgive me, I honestly believe this mantra that the US is better and therefore above tactics currently used by others is exactly why you won't win. In fact on the long term you will probably lose for exactly this reason, it's your achilles heel and will be exploited. Btw Trump (whom I dislike intensely) I must admit have changed tact, he is now not playing by the rules (economically) because the US have been taking advantage off, intellectual property have been stolen on a mass scale by other countries, while the US sits above it all.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2018
  19. AlphaOmega

    AlphaOmega Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    because they are US Soldiers and not enemies who are actively trying to kill us and our families. Is there a harder question?
     
  20. Crawdadr

    Crawdadr Well-Known Member

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    I would rather lose doing the right thing then win by becoming the monsters we face.
     
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  21. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I question the fact torture will turn us into monsters who kill thousands with no remorse
     
  22. Elcarsh

    Elcarsh Well-Known Member

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    But what is the difference between torture and the other ways in which investigators and soldiers are already handicapped by laws?

    What makes torture acceptable when other methods aren't?

    Oh, and torture doesn't work, for those who missed that little fact.
     
  23. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You can follow the thread back, I believe Guyzilla posted about using treats as other methods, these methods while good takes a long time before they give results, therefore I believe time is a factor in deciding what method you use, also the lives of innocent people at stake. If you have time then don't use torture, I'm not advocating for stringing people up because I like to see them hanging upside down, by all means put some intellectual effort in your decision.

    Torture can and do work, besides there's no 100% guarantee no matter what interrogation methods you use, it's easier to string interrogators along with treats, dropping tiny bits of information that are basically useless.

    Overall I believe it's a decision on the level of commitment you are prepared to make to fight an enemy.
     
  24. Crawdadr

    Crawdadr Well-Known Member

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    You shouldnt, the more violence you commit the easier it is to do it again and justify it. That is the case for anything in life it is always easier the second time and with rationalization we are willing to go the next step down any path. For the greater good after all right? God Wills It! That was what the crusaders said as they slaughtered innocent people in the name of Christ. Our savior was a pacifist that was angered when his disciples struck out at the men coming to kill him and yet they believed that slaughtering people in his name would please him. That conquering the Holy Land was for the greater good of the Christian world. They rationalized their actions and perverted the name of God in order to kill. I dont want that for the USA, I dont want us to take that road any farther then we already have.
     
  25. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That's noble Cdr and I respect you for your position, unfortunately I'm just too practical, I understand that while it would be wonderful to follow that high road where your conscience is clear and you can sleep like a baby at night, this inaction could result in watching others die and knowing you could have prevented it if only you made the sacrifice.
     

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