Trump is in la la land when it comes to North Korea

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Sandy Shanks, Feb 9, 2019.

  1. Heroclitus

    Heroclitus Well-Known Member

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    So here we have the absolute treachery of the US Right laid out in all its splendour.

    Who are you to speak for Hong Kong? Who are you to deny the people of Hong Kong the universal rights that all humans are entitled to? The idea that "the Chinese have left it pretty much as it was" is greatly disputed in Hong Kong.

    The comparison between the second biggest economy in the world, the oldest continuous civilisation - whatever its faults and there are many - and a criminal gang of mass murdering fascist thugs, is also ludicrous.

    But how stupid can it be to propose that the Free World abandons South Korea to North Korea? More than stupid. This is treachery. The sort of glib isolationist drivel that fails to see the interconnectedness of the world. It's not so much intellectual failure on the part of the US Right but more a hateful, selfish, internally generated moral failure. This isolationist rubbish - of course a disaster for the well being of the United States and its allies - is no more and no less than twisted evil at the heart of America's degeneracy and decline.

    North Korea was being slowly strangled by the world community, led by successive US governments. Actions that needed to be taken were to increase pressure on China to stop enabling circumvention of sanctions. The economic pressure should have been tightened further. The regime was beset by factionalism. Kim had far from consolidated his position. He was purging and executing people. It all looked pretty grim for him back then.

    So instead of continuing with a policy to squeeze this communist-nationalist monster further, what has happened? This American president, mentally impaired with severe narcissistic personality disorder, has conducted a love-in with this sociopathic mass murder (who likes to watch his political opponents being executed on his orders by anti-aircraft guns) and decided that they have much in common. He has conducted an exercise purely for the benefit of soothing his own narcissistic rage that has enabled Kim to re-group, continue with weapons development, and flourish within his own kingdom as an undoubted world statesman who has the President of the United States as one of his great admirers. Furthermore the Republican Party is now spinning this gross betrayal of its own (supposed) values as Churchillian "jawing jaw rather than warring war". These people who until now had twisted the slightest nuance in foreign affairs by anyone vaguely liberal into a shriek of "appeasement", now make Chamberlain returning from Munich look like the scourge of Hitler compared to Mr Trump's capitulation in the face of a few ego boosting words and photo ops.

    All the pressure that existed before is now relaxed. Kim is elevated as a great leader in front of a people that were starting to question him (the regime had been said to be on the verge of implosion). Trump has paid more respect to this thug than any other world leader. Where he has tried to de-stablize democratically elected world leaders he has done nothing but give succour to scumbag Kim. This has benefited Kim enormously. Weapons production - according to the CIA - has accelerated, along with the production of weapons grade nuclear fuel. He is now undisputed leader and safe from overthrow.

    Trump is a traitor to open societies. As are people who call for annexation of South Korea by the North. He is enthusiastically supported by his sycophantic and dependent base. They dutifully line up on forums like this to support him whatever he does. The tragedy is that with the European Union imploding in a similar way, the world is now gradually being surrendered to the enemies of freedom. And this is not lefties surrendering to communists. It is the US Right, purely due to their own personal psychological inadequacy, low intelligence and the gross ignorance with which they are afflicted, selling the Free World to any tyrant you can name - Xi, Kim, Putin, Duterte... The Right will now deny reality to support the snake oil salesman. Traitors all.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019 at 1:28 AM
    Sandy Shanks likes this.
  2. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    SK is not important. Sorry, I don't know where you got that, but it's just not. We have enough troops in Japan which is right next door, and not on the doorstep of a country we'd like to develop a relationship with.
     
  3. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    There's been some meddling with the politics of HK in terms of who can run for chief executive, but there really hasn't been any substantive change. They still have separate passports, different money, and different laws furchrissake!

    Yeah, well if you want a globalist, then you'll just have to wait for the next President. SK is not important to our interests. It's not connected to us in any meaningful way, grants us nothing we don't already have in the region, so is irrelevant to us.
     
  4. AZBob

    AZBob Active Member

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    Wow, you packed allot of warmongering chicken hawk drivel into one post. Congrats.
     
  5. Heroclitus

    Heroclitus Well-Known Member

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    The freedoms of people in Hong Kong are being systematically eroded. Chinese people are afraid to speak about the government in public. The central government is talking about judges being officials of the State who owe allegiance to that state (instead of allegiance to the Rule of Law which is very different). The Central government is arresting people in Hong Kong and spiriting them across the border. The Executive is chosen against the majority wish of the people to be ultra loyal to Beijing and it is complying. The press is gradually being taken over by loyal Beijing lackeys. Yes, it is true that some freedoms still exist, but the policy and direction of policy both from the Beijing and Hong Kong governments is to gradually, and not so gradually, erode the rule of law and the rights of the Hong Kong people.

    Of course I understand that isolationists will never understand the foreign policy interests of their countries. To call for a communist takeover of Korea is a disgrace but isolationists do not care what happens to other human beings than their own narrow tribe. Those people stink, by any moral standard that civilised people in the last hundred years would follow. But if you think that American interests are served by a major strengthening of the forces of repression in the region, it is very difficult to argue with such lunacy. So we will either see the continuing decline of the USA as it retreats (as with Britain) or we will see a new globalist President. Populists propose easy glib solutions, dripping with chauvinistic self interest, that are so poorly thought through that they always backfire.
     
  6. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but this is just all too vague to be of any use. Also, saying that chinese are afraid to speak about the government in public? Spiriting people away across the border? You mean Hong Kong residents are being shlepped off to the mainland?

    No, this needs some actual examples. I know several people in Hong Kong, have been there several times, and this just doesn't jibe with what I know.



    Nobody has called for a communist takeover of the Korean peninsula. I'm just saying that our presence there is not necessary. We're only there because we are technically still at war with NK, and that's been the state of things since 1950! If NK takes over SK, well... I wouldn't want that, of course, but it's not really our concern. If the south koreans want to defend their land, then let young south korean men die protecting their country. We are Americans and don't have a dog in that fight.
     
  7. Heroclitus

    Heroclitus Well-Known Member

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    Well you should research it. HK residents who were booksellers, one of whom was even a Swedish citizen (Gui Minhai), were kidnapped and reappeared in the mainland. One mainlander who was staying in the Four Seasons was arrested by Mainland police in Hong Kong and escorted over the border. Just yesterday a Chinese friend of mine (a banker) asked me to lower my voice when we were talking about such matters. He feared spies and informers and difficulty at work as a result. Truthfully he was only slightly afraid, but this is the changing mood in Hong Kong.

    China is very smart. It acts brutally and unashamedly in a brazen and extreme way, acting in a totally unjustifiable manner and then denying it and aggressively denouncing any criticism (a bit like...?). What happens then is self censorship as people just try and avoid trouble. Occasionally this goes overboard and reveals the potential ugliness of Chinese Exceptionalism, as with the vitriol poured on Sweden when police dealt evenhandedly with an hysterical Chinese family who had booked their hotel on the wrong day and were asked to leave a hotel when they became aggressive and demanded a room in the fully booked hotel. The Chinese Embassy in Sweden started making all sorts of demands that people be punished and accused Sweden of racism etc.. All this was connected to the Swedish-Chinese bookseller incident (see above).

    Recently the Foreign Correspondents Club (an institution that used to host journalists back to the Vietnam War) hosted a talk by a Hong Kong independence activist. These guys have almost zero support but the intolerance of them is ferocious. The (foreign) Financial Times journalist who hosted the meeting (he didn't support the independence campaign he just hosted the meeting) was barred from HK the next time he tried to enter. It is a clear attack on the Freedom of the press which is supposedly guaranteed in the Basic Law. He had been a resident but not a permanent resident and so the government removed his work permit. In true CCP style the CEO of HK refused to answer questions on this or explain it. They did it because they could. The impact of these actions on self censorship is massive. There is climate of fear emerging, particularly if you have nowhere else to go (i.e. you only hold a HK passport). People do not like to discuss this. It is trouble making. Just like in a communist country.

    HK does still have a judiciary that makes the occasional independent decision and we do not have police force that has the same powers as the Mainland force and behaves pretty much like a British police force. We still have a common law system and even though our vote is not properly represented in the Legislature, we do get a vote (most of the Legislature is appointed by small groups) and so views can still be seen in election results and the majority still support democratic, rather than the pro-communist, parties. The popular will is not reflected in the Executive, which is drawn exclusively from pro-Beijing establishment apparatchiks. I agree with you that China benefits from an autonomous one-country-two-systems Hong Kong but this benefit can also easily be sacrificed to satisfy the unyielding thirst for control and obedience that the CCP demands. The PRC will have its cake and eat it.

    The USA and Europe also benefit from the nature of HK as it facilitates the global capitalist system that generates prosperity for our nations. You do not agree with that. If you want to see how isolationist nations get on, look at the history of China from about 1450-1979. In 1450 China was by far the most developed and powerful nation in the world. By far. Way ahead of everyone else as you would expect from the largest country that was also the oldest continuing civilisation. Then it closed to the world and scuttled its Navy. It banned foreigners and scorned trade. The reason why the British resorted to opium - to its eternal shame - was because the Chinese Emperor deemed that "we have no use for your foreign manufactures". They needed markets and the isolationist wouldn't play do they created opium addiction. China declined to near irrelevance, humiliated by foreign armies and unequal treaties until Deng Xiao Peng opened the door again in the twentieth century. Then the rise of China began. And the pace of change of a nation so big suddenly looking outward was immense.

    With Xi it is now embarking on a round of aggressive expansionist nationalism. It is a different path. The big question is: will the subjugation of freedoms in China stifle innovation and development in China or make it more efficient and successful? As a global elitist you can guess that I would like to see an open China succeed, as it will, one way or another dominate the world through sheer numbers. An open, liberal China would be no threat to our freedoms, indeed it would enhance them. If a closed, authoritarian, nationalist China succeeds it will be a disaster for the world. It is hard to see how the quest for resources that every developed country goes through will not bring China head to head with other powers' interests. If we have a win/win development then this can be peaceful and profitable. If it is a zero sum competition, there will be conflict. You cannot escape this by hiding behind your borders. The North Korean situation is intrinsically linked to this question.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019 at 5:17 AM
  8. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    Okay, I looked into it. Gui Ninghai has no connection with Hong Kong. He was born Chinese then changed his nationality to Swedish. Went to Thailand and disappeared, then turned up in some Chinese prison. Nothing to do with hong kong.

    Obviously I can't look into things like your banker friend wanting to talk in hushed tones (not exactly something HK people are prone to do).

    I don't have any love for the Chinese or their government. They are the main suppliers of illegal Fentanyl (a drug only used legally for surgery I believe) being sent to the country. Their government is atrocious with lots of human rights abuses. I just know that in Hong Kong, things seem relatively benign.

    We clearly have very different views on what the United States' role should be in the world. I think we need to get back to our non-interventionist roots. There is a danger there, but it's not like we don't have a whole bunch of very very dangerous weapons at our disposal. We could send the entire world back into the stone age if we wanted to, so people are not going to mess with us. I liken it to a game of poker where everybody is armed. If anybody wants to start cheating, they won't live long enough to spend their ill-gotten gains. You want us to be the most vicious guy in the cell block, while I'm perfectly happy knowing that we can pull a Bruce Lee on anybody that thinks they can take advantage of us if the soap accidentally drops.
     
  9. Heroclitus

    Heroclitus Well-Known Member

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    He was a Hong Kong resident and one of the Causeway Bay (that's in Hong Kong) book-sellers. The other two were abducted from Hong Kong.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearances

    Yes. If you are going to discuss with me you should do me the courtesy of believing me when I tell you something from my personal experience. I would extend the courtesy to you. I am clearly a Hong Kong resident and you have no evidence of me making things up. Your churlishness is insulting.

    That doesn't mean we cannot have civil discussion. Oh, sorry I forgot, this is a Culture War. If I do not agree with you I must be the Devil Incarnate.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019 at 5:47 AM
  10. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    It certainly wasn't clear that you are a hong kong resident. For that, I do respect your experience there. Just realize that your experiences are not indicative of the rest of the residents. It's still not mainland China by a long shot.
     
  11. Heroclitus

    Heroclitus Well-Known Member

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    Ok we have a civil discourse (no mean achievement round here). I'm a foreign permanent resident of Hong Kong.

    I never said that it's Mainland China. I challenged your assertion that not much has changed re political freedoms since 1997. It has.
     
  12. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough. I have been there a few times (lantau is a great place to unwind) and have never heard anybody really complain about things, although I will admit that there has been worry ever since it was handed back in 97.
     
  13. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Well-Known Member

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    Sandy wants a nuclear war in Korea so that libs can complain about that

    Instead they are forced to find fault when there is no war
     
  14. Heroclitus

    Heroclitus Well-Known Member

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    I'm not saying you see it every day. Even in the Mainland politics is not an everyday subject. But from time to time it creeps in. Hong Kong is a great place.

    South Lantau is a hidden gem...powdery white sandy beaches. I must go when it gets warmer.
     
  15. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    Watch out for buffalo.
     
  16. ocean515

    ocean515 Well-Known Member Donor

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    It's obvious you've done nothing to become informed on the subject. Why even comment then?

    Your extreme bias eliminates consideration of your thoughts on the issue. You might try to become a bit more objective if your going to debate anything.
     
  17. 9royhobbs

    9royhobbs Well-Known Member

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    And your way of getting "informed" is right wing blogs and Fox. Look, if you think I'm wrong why don't you prove it. The dismantling you referenced was said last year at the time of the summit so to say they are compiling is a joke. Yes, I have a bias against Trump and you had one against Obama. So what, it didn't keep you from giving your thoughts. As far as NK, they are right where China wants them to be with us. Trump is getting played by China, anyone can see that.
     
  18. Sandy Shanks

    Sandy Shanks Well-Known Member Donor

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    Do y9ou have a reading problem? That is not what I said. I said, Trump promised to protect Kim. "We will guarantee his safety," he said of Kim. "He will be safe, he will be happy, his country will be rich, his country will be hardworking and very prosperous."

    There are numerous ways to remove a man from power without attacking the country. A sure sign of weakness is imagining what I say rather than dealing with what I actually said.

    Yes, that is exactly the point. First, you supported Trump's surrender of Syria to Russia. Now you would rather we not anger Kim. Are you a communist?
     
  19. AZBob

    AZBob Active Member

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    A: You have a serious lack of geopolitical knowledge, a long with a poor comprehension of our own history. America doesn’t assassinate foreign leaders. That’s been the case since Ford issued Executive Oreder 11905. It’s been that case every since. Next, A coup won’t work either, since there’s no US assets in North Korea. This leads me to believe that you have a very rudimentary understanding of world affairs.

    Next, you asked if I’m a communist. That’s pretty ridiculous. But, unlike you, I’m not a chicken hawk, nor a war monger.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019 at 2:48 PM
  20. ocean515

    ocean515 Well-Known Member Donor

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    I don't visit right wing blogs, and it would be a very rare thing for me to link anything to Fox News. Don't be so desperate that you have to resort to that lazy fall back meme.

    Don't even try to compare my dislike of Obama's policies to the insane obsessive hate expressed by the Never Trumpers. That is so over the top, any attachment to objective reality is nonexistent.
     

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