Ukraine forces using civilian human sheilds- Amnesty International

Discussion in 'Warfare / Military' started by modernpaladin, Aug 6, 2022.

  1. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Also Russians targeting civilian areas with no evidence of military activity. Thats not the headline because everyone (except Russians, perhaps) are already well aware of this.

    Ukraine: military endangering civilians by locating forces in residential areas - new research | Amnesty International UK

    "Ukraine’s tactics have violated international humanitarian law as they’ve turned civilian objects into military targets. The ensuing Russian strikes in populated areas have killed civilians and destroyed civilian infrastructure."

    But also:

    "Not every Russian attack documented by Amnesty has followed this pattern. In certain locations in which Amnesty concluded that Russia had committed war crimes - including in some areas of the city of Kharkiv - Amnesty did not find evidence of Ukrainian forces located in civilian areas unlawfully targeted by the Russian military."

    And yet:

    "Most residential areas where soldiers located themselves were miles away from front lines and viable alternatives were available that would not have endangered civilians - such as military bases, densely-wooded areas or other structures further from residential areas. In the cases it documented, Amnesty is not aware that the Ukrainian military asked or assisted civilians to evacuate nearby buildings - a failure to take feasible precautions to protect civilians."

    "Amnesty contacted the Ukrainian Ministry of Defence with its findings on 29 July, but at the time of publication it had not yet responded.

    Agnès Callamard, Amnesty International’s Secretary General, said:

    “We have documented a pattern of Ukrainian forces putting civilians at risk and violating the laws of war when they operate in populated areas.

    “Being in a defensive position does not exempt the Ukrainian military from respecting international humanitarian law.

    “Militaries should never use hospitals to engage in warfare and should only use schools or civilian homes as a last resort when there are no viable alternatives.

    “The Ukrainian government should immediately ensure that it locates its forces away from populated areas or should evacuate civilians from areas where the military is operating.” "


    So its what I been saying the whole time- they both suck. Both Russia and Ukraine are more concerned about winning than they are about protecting innocent lives.

    To be fair, this is simply the nature of war. Its one of the reasons why "war is hell." The 'good guy/bad guy' narrative always falls apart when the fog of propaganda starts to lift.
     
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  2. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Well the Ukrainians are taking a pounding, both literally and figuratively from Russian artillery so hiding out in civilian areas makes sense. Although an odd tactic for a force that I keep being told is winning the war.
     
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  3. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Ya, if the Russians were attacking my town, I would be shooting at them from my house.

    ...but my family wouldn't here, and I wouldn't be telling CNN that the Russians shot at my house for no reason.

    My point is that we always see 'Russians attack civilian targets!' in the news, we never see, 'Russians attack Ukrainian military fighting from civilian areas' on the news ...because that doesn't make the Russians look as evil.

    Russian media claims Ukraine is fighting from civilian areas to increase civilian casualties for propaganda effect against the Russians. Taken with this report from Amnesty International, this particular Russian propaganda seems likely true.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2022
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  4. Melb_muser

    Melb_muser Well-Known Member Donor

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    Perhaps Russians need to get the f*** out. Problem solved.
     
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  5. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    That's your response to a war crime being committed by the Ukrainian Army?

    Heh, damn Russkies!
     
  6. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Absolutely. But until that happens, we should be arming Ukrainian civilians instead of Ukrainian military. If both Russia and Ukraine are intent on putting the poor folks of the region in harms way anyway to achieve their political objectives, the people should have the means to do something about it.
     
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  7. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    They are defending their cities, and that's a war crime? What are they supposed to do? Just give up? Russia is bombing civilian targets and its somehow Ukrainians fault?
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2022
  8. Melb_muser

    Melb_muser Well-Known Member Donor

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    I 'liked' the OP and acknowledged his point. Nevertheless it is Russian bombing that is hurting the Ukrainian civilians.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2022
  9. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "Most residential areas where soldiers located themselves were miles away from front lines and viable alternatives were available that would not have endangered civilians - such as military bases, densely-wooded areas or other structures further from residential areas"

    If this analysis from Amnesty International is accurate, it strongly suggests that Ukraine is intentionally choosing populated areas to defend in order to intentionally increase civilian casualties. This is a common tactic when the defender is looking to bolster their propaganda against the enemy and garner more outside sympathy and support. Do you want to increase support for a force that intentionally uses civilians as sheilds/fodder like that?
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2022
  10. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'm sure Russians are happy to blame Ukrainians every time they murder civilians. IMO its absurd, and I am surprised you are taking the Russian side on this.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2022
  11. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    so you wont answer the question, and "they both suck. Both Russia and Ukraine are more concerned about winning than they are about protecting innocent lives" is me 'taking sides'. Right... :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2022
  12. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Of course Ukrainians want to win. Seriously? They have been assaulted by the Russian army who don't give a rip about who lives or dies. They actually take pleasure in torturing people. I suppose most countries would have evacuated the civilians, and maybe Ukrainians told them to evacuate, but they chose to stay. It is what it is, but there is no reason why they should defend they country on the Russians terms.
     
  13. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You're neither disputing the evidense from Amnesty International that points to a deliberate Ukrainian tactic of increasing civilian casualties for propaganda gain, nor are you recognizing that Ukraine shouldn't be doing that.

    Is it a tactic you find reasonable?
     
  14. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It sounds like you are saying they should not defend the cities because civilians might get hurt if they do.

    I'm sorry but I disagree. I think they do need to defend the cities.
     
  15. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    True, but both sides can commit war crimes.
     
  16. Farnsworth

    Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    Amnesty International is a joke front for all kinds of vermin, including Russian allies in the ME and have all the credibility of used car salesmen and the UN, only much less than those.

    Russians are allowed to shell Ukraine freely from Russian held territory, but Biden and the Euro-Trash cripple Ukraine from using western weapons on Russian artillery based in Russian held territory, which is a ridiculous restriction.
     

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