Ukraine war talks start now, Trump says after Putin call

.....do you realise you are repeating almost word for word the Russian narratives......the only people that have a say in this is Russia and America.....do you believe that?.

..also think along the lines of how you conduct a negotiation.....for example do you trumpet on social media exactly what your negotiating position and the desired outcome...or do you give away the mood music of your own team as to their determination of their prospects....

Since we're all now on the Russian side.....why not follow their example....

....that's diplomatic language for we're dealing with a bunch of amateurs here.....

https://rg.ru/2025/02/13/pervyj-zvonok.html

Oh and whilst we're at it.....bearing in mind the thoughts we had about the status of various European countries that were historically in Russian orbit, you may want to see the narratives being tested; Naryshkin is curating a narrative designed to fudge the question of boundaries and by default calling into question their very rights to exist....you may recall this is exactly how the process started with Ukraine; culminating in Putin's essay that basically said Ukraine didn't exist as a country and that it was an agglomeration of entities which essentially came into existence because of, and thus were, rightfully Russian.....Sergey Naryshkin has started a narrative along the same lines on Romania and Poland and Hungary....it's very tame stuff as it's merely the starting point in the narrative but it will give you a flavour of how the process works....

Naryshkin is a very clever bloke and doesn't come out with this stuff for no reason.

 

...I would imagine....not being privvy to such matters....but if it were me and seeing that Trump is telegraphing his position to Russia that he's quite prepared to throw a european democracy under the bus for the sake of a quick newscycle and wandering into a room without a f*cking clue as to what he's doing then....yes as an ally I would want to assist and be part of the team in order to find out what the modus operandi is and gauge what the diplomatic status is between Russia and the US. For example take sanctions, the EU imposes sectoral and individual sanctions across a whole raft of companies and individuals, Putin included, these sanctions are enforcable by law...if such laws are not going to be enforced by America going forward then the implications need to be understood - what is the status of OFAC and SWIFT transactions for example if there is a asymmetry in their application when US countries based in Europe are involved? Are we going to Take legal action against them and would they be enforcable in the US. Are current extradition treaties currently in place between UK/US going to be enforcible if Putin lands in Washington....the UK could request their US counterparts to persue an arrest warrant...will they....very doubtful so that treaty then becomes null and void....what of others? AUKUS for example...do you think the UK will agree to continue with releasing high level intelligence to a country it can on longer trust?

In any case....you think China isn't in the room....or North Korea.....you think these countries aren't making sure the US mitigates Russian's position....war crimes...meh...who cares.....reparations....meh...who cares....

 

Incorrect, please read my whole post. I said Russia wants relevance just as other nuclear powers. Europe in this case wants relevance for some reason on negotiations that they did not want a part of until Trump initiated them(negotiations). Russia and America can make whatever negotiations and demands they would like. The EU as a bloc can reject that, provide full support to Ukraine's economy and war effort and if Ukraine accepts that, which Zelensky would like do, they can move forward without US support to Ukraine's economy and war effort.
--Like I said, you are right in that Russia wants influence and relevance in the world, they went as far to be a major power embarking in a military invasion of a neighbor. If Europe wants to keep its relevance it can just counter that by supporting Ukraine without the US. Trump sees Europe of little relevance, and begging to be part of negotiations only reinforces that and the fact that Europe is not all in on Ukraine's defense. Russia will see that as well. Its up to Russia and America as much as all the parties involved make it.

The only Russian narrative that repeats is the lack of resolve and influence Europe has at this point. Only Europe can change that, it can be done.

Hey could be that we are amateurs and Trump probably is for all that it matters. All the rest of that from my American perspective seems like some complicated European stuff. When Putin invades a NATO member let us know, otherwise take the lead if you are vested or get out the way and let us negotiate.
If every EU member sent a battalion to help the Ukrainians you could really change the direction of the war and negotiations. If you wont I am not sure it matters to most Europeans as it matters to you.

 

You dont need to do anything. Trump openly stated all of this during the election cycle. He will end the war on day one(ASAP). How did you assume he would do this, I think he even said he would stop aid to Ukraine and ask Russia for a ceasefire. Trump has openly stated his intention to leave NATO, openly stated his intention to tariff everyone. Unfortunately he sees everyone as weak and our allies taking advantage of us. He understands that we can stand on our own two feet, have a large military, and a large nuclear arsenal.

He openly stated most of this, the EU is large, has a strong military as a bloc, and a large nuclear arsenal as a bloc. Start acting like it, you can survive our political system for Trumps term. Things could change drastically after our next election. Now is the time for the EU to have a singular relevance, not the EU and the US. Like I said, Trump has floated us leaving NATO.

 

Of course he can make bilateral deals with Russia as much as he wants, if the Ukraine agrees with it, they can negotiate a peace, but up to now he seems to be under the illusions that he can decide that the EU has to finance and support his plans, that's of course ridiculous and just basic logic that its not going to happen.

I mean, what would you say if the EU negotiate a deal with Japan that the US has to pay for the reconstruction of Sudan after their war. I doubt you would feel obliged to pay even a cent, send troops whatsoever, unless you were asked beforehand. Anyway, we will see what the outcome is. I doubt that Putin will accept any of what you just suggested, anyway. He has gone too far with his annexations and cannot negotiate any of it now anymore.

 

it is complicated......maybe best if you stick to twitter it has less characters to worry about.....

 

....yeah....that'll do it.....

 

again...what are you talking about? Should that happen the whole point of NATO has failed...

 

Can Ukraine keep going without US support? Is Europe capable of stepping in and will they?

 

So far lotsa aid from Europeans has come through.

France/Macron has floated the idea of French troops in Ukraine.

Pootler crapped himself on hearing that.

 

Trump's desperate bid to be Putin's friend shows he has no idea what's at stake | John Bolton


Bolton: ‘Trump has effectively surrendered to Putin

 

Why would you do this when 60% of the Ukrainian people want to end the war even if it means giving up territory? Does their opinion even matter or should they be forced to fight to the last man? The longer this war goes on, the greater the possibility that Zelensky is killed by his own people. It has happened in the past.

 

Wow....that's some link?....where did you find it?

 

Yes, but Trump is not anti-Russia so doesn't want to attack Russia from Ukraine.

He has however joined the Zionists so expect there might be something big in the Middle East,
and as with Ukraine, we will blame it on whoever we want to attack.

 

My point is, you have 4 parties in this. The EU, Ukraine, Russia and the US. Nobody else really cares. No one party can MAKE anyone else do anything. Ukraine can reject any negotiation and go it alone. The EU can reject any negotiations and support Ukraine as a bloc.

Concerning Sudan, its the same matter. The US will not let anyone else negotiate for us. We would not come running after the fact and ask to be a part of negotiations with Japan. Japan could negotiate with us if that is the political atmosphere in the US. Putin can agree with our negotiations, and Putin can not agree if the EU says screw you we are sending troops there because we are that vested in Ukraine.

 

Putin must have told Trump what to say

 

As I said from my American perspective. There are plenty of videos in jest, who say ask the average American to point at the "Baltic Countries" on a map. We laugh at that because its not unlikely they would point at the Mediterranean Sea, because not vested in the information. You mentioned politics in Poland, Serbia, maybe someone else in there.... Russia politics. Most Americans know Putin, I personally off the top of my head could not tell you who runs the UK, because I don't care. It gets worse if you ask is Serbia far left or far right, the answer is I don't care. I feel most Americans could not answer the question without looking it up on their cell phone.

 

....except they didn't get it from Trump. They got it from Putin. The agreement to boost defence spending was secured by Obama after the 2014 invasion of Ukraine. Spending began to increase fro mthere & jumped again after the 2022 invasion. Trump has spent 8 years acting like he got everyone to do what he wanted, but he just walked through an open door & acted like he kicked it down.

All he has achieved by himself is to weaken NATO & help Putin.

 

Dont lay down to Russia. You say that sanctions and banter are more effective than sending around 3 divisions to fight. They need troops and people to die for and with them, not cheerleaders running fundraisers. Seems not that vested in Ukrainian freedom.

 

I am assuming you think NATO is supposed to be something that is to inspire fear and only inspire fear?? We are vested by word and writing to defend a NATO country if invaded, no indication we would not(Unless Trump pulls us out of NATO.). Russia would be overwhelmed if they attempted it, they are having problems with just Ukraine.

 

They are capable. The are formidable. They should remember WWII, Russia is softened up a little from fighting Ukraine. Problem is they dont have the popular opinion to ask people to die for it, there would be to much push back. Its war, they would have to suffer a little for victory and they obviously dont have the domestic support for that among the bloc.

I wish they would surprise me though, unlikely.

 

Looks like Ukraine will be involved in negotiations according to Russia and the US.

Other people? Looks like maybe the EU will be involved in the negotiations as well.

 

Interesting to hear the cheeseburger eating surrender monkeys spin American humiliation as they hand victory to a Eurasian murder gang.

They keep buying the snake oil. Even as they surrender.

Trump is a classic paper tiger coward who can be faced down by the most amateur strongman.

He surrendered to Kim,

Then surrendered to the Taliban,

Now surrenders to Putin.

Surrendering is what Trump does,

Then he tells you it's a "deal".

A deal where he conceded half his negotiating points before he even started.

The only deal Trump has done is with Putin to boost Russia and to damage the USA's former allies in democratic Europe.

The signs are not good for Taiwan, or South Korea or Japan... if you don't pay then the mafioso won't protect you. Trump's talking the same big game he always talks how the USA will focus on China. Expect to see another grubby "deal" which will betray allies in Asia.

The USA has always been a summer soldier, full of sunshine patriots. It has never been a reliable friend and Europe needs to get this message good and hard. The USA is an enemy of liberal democracy in Europe. It does not share the values of human rights, freedom and the rule of law. It is, and always has been, a nineteenth century "might is right" political entity (despite it looking like they are now heading for a pre-Magna Carta type of monarchy).

The only exception was when Japan and Nazi Germany dragged an isolationist, America First, Hitler-appeasing USA into WW2 by attacking the USA and declaring war on it.

Then a generation of the finest Americans left US shores and finally learned the meaning of freedom, liberty and international solidarity. That lesson was forged in battle, side by side with their comrades from other free nations. A battle where they fought a formidable enemy and the odds were often stacked against them, where they risked their lives and many, many lost them to defend the world against tyranny. Victorious they established the rules based order that led to global prosperity and ultimately the triumph of democracy and freedom. They are now gone. The gangsters of America First are back.

That golden generation is no more. It was an aberration for America. The gangsters, Know Nothings and hate mongers are running things again.

Time for Germany to re-arm properly, through borrowing if necessary. Time for France to understand that relying on the USA in any way is a threat to their liberty. Time for Italy and Spain to step up their military capability. The UK needs to ditch a useless nuclear deterrent that depends entirely on an untrustworthy USA and replace it with a truly independent nuclear capability. France needs to treble its number of warheads. Germany (and South Korea and Japan) need to go nuclear as well as the USA is a completely unreliable ally and its guarantees of nuclear protection are useless. And the US dollar must be displaced as the reserve currency even if it means strengthening rival currencies such as the Chinese Yuan so that Americans finally have to pay for the profligate defence spending that gives them such an overwhelming position to bully from (instead of getting everyone else to pay for it by funding their deficit).

Europeans are starting to get this. But it is too slow. They will have to grovel before the Americans for now. I am thankful that the Americans are making it so painful that even these feckless bureaucrats are getting the message. Trump is really making them eat dirt. Europes contribution to Ukraine far outweighs that of the USA but the USA does a Yalta deal with Putin (Putin's very own wet dream coming true where he, a leader of a gangster nation with a GDP lower than Italy's is treated as a global superpower by his fellow American gangster). They divide up the world between them. The mighty EU, with the UK an economic powerhouse as large as the USA, isn't even invited! Thank God these Americans really are the kind of gormless ignorants people who have never left their State and so are acting like thugs towards the Europeans, Canadians etc.., thank-God. Carry on grunting Trumpistas...louder if you please. The lazy, cowardly, don't-want-to-change European elite that has run things in the EU may finally get the message.

Europeans now need to invest in their defence industries because there is no more American ally any more, indeed it may even be an explicit enemy in the future as it predicates its foreign and trade policy purely on what it can do by bullying and force alone and dispenses with principle, respect for international borders and shared values completely. How embarrassing that Europe is completely unable to push back against a US threat to annexe European territory! This is only the start Europe. Why can't the USA just have Ireland, as a forward base for its own security, after all nearly everyone in America is actually Irish aren't they? And the Irish should pay back all that money Americans have been sending them to finance their terrorist campaigns. The USA may want to occupy the UK, with Musk calling for a recent election to be put aside or Germany given that they already have a big base or two there.

It's time Europe got itself some swagger. The modern world came from Europe. All of it. America developed it but Europe spawned it. European thinkers, European industrialists, European scientists, European entrepreneurs and traders, made the modern world. The Americans accuse the Chinese of being copiers but any analysis of innovation shows that it is the USA who copy and fast-follow the most. Fair play to them. Europe needs to emulate that if only to survive in today's world of gangsters, kleptocrats, thieves, and demagogues.

 

The Scotsman - did you get that? Invading another country is now a perfectly legitimate way of establishing your strength. That is the US thinking now.

Instead of this being something that the whole world would sanction as a transgression against a rules based order (the Pax Americana world since 1945), it is now something to be dealt with only by other powers who want to establish their strength.

It is an amoral, wholly transactional position, solely based on might being right, as I argued a nineteenth century Bismarckian perspective where the conduct of international affairs is utterly unconnected to freedom, liberty, law, morals etc.. and entirely subject to power.

This is the change. Its obscene. It reeks of cowardly people who sit miles away from any actual military action and can see this as a chess board. It is the world of thugs who send young men to die in meat grinders or who bomb civilians with "shock and awe". It is a mindset that dehumanises the human race. But...

It is the new American mindset. When it is explicitly stated like this, it's important to recognise it for what it is and not to wish it away. It is reality. Today.

I only wish they would get that bust of Churchill out of the Oval Office. He must be turning in his grave.

We know that this is exactly the worldview of China and Russia, the former who know that their sheer numbers and Western led industrial development will lead to them having raw power and the latter solely on the basis of a few thousand nuclear weapons that they inherited from the USSR. It's power that counts. Nothing else.

If everyone else is playing suzerainty over sovereignty (the old Great Game where Great Powers vie for increased influence by exploiting weaknesses in each other), then what choice has Europe got? It's painful that Europe had with its allies convinced itself that morality and freedom and prosperity were all linked and this is now crumbling. Europe's strongest ally, with whom there was an implicit deal that the US protect Europe and Europe finance their trade deficits through accepting dollar dominance, is not on board any more.

Europe's problem is not lack of capability to dominate its region and influence globally, but that it is in disarray with fifth columnists and populists sabotaging Europe's will to be strong. Europe needs leadership. That probably needs to start in Germany as Macron has messed up France so badly.

 

Putin calls in his debt and Trump caves in. The people of Ukraine are casually sacrificed in the long term after being slaughtered in the short term.
Not difficult to understand.
Let’s hope we get the unlikely scenario where America is told to go away and the rest of Europe support Ukraine. It will be a long slow drawn out process, and if I were in charge in Europe I would refuse to purchase any armaments produced in America, they can stay isolationist and worship their genitalia grabbing moron and Musk his Nerd Reich controller.