Unmarried sexual relations

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by pjohns, Nov 14, 2018.

  1. pjohns

    pjohns Well-Known Member

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    Here, I think, is an interesting question:

    From a Christian standpoint--not from a contemporary societal standpoint, but from a purely Christian standpoint--is it always immoral to have sexual relations outside of marriage?

    Most people, I believe, will reflexively answer "yes."

    But is that actually the case?

    True, Paul does condemn "fornication," as many English versions have it.

    Two thoughts come to mind, however:

    First, unmarried sex, in the first century--long before any reliable methods of birth control were formulated--often led to unwanted pregnancies. And the father often abandoned the mother, thereby causing serious problems.

    Moreover, the word "fornication" is a translation of the Greek word porneia (from which we get pornography). It is generally defined, by the lexicons, as sexual immorality (which begs the question: What, exactly, does this include; and what does it exclude?).

    And it is closely associated with "reveling" and "carousing"--what we would nowadays refer to as partying.

    But it is very difficult to imagine that a couple--perhaps even a longtime couple--is "partying" when they express love in a physical manner.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    Unconsciously or otherwise, you're exploiting a deficiency in the English language. A man who beds a woman is obviously expressing eros, but if she's not his wife, he sure as Hell isn't expressing agape.
     
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  3. CourtJester

    CourtJester Well-Known Member

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    Married sex can result in unwanted pregnancies. And " sexual immorality " is easy to define. It is doing anything your partner doesn't want. Anything two consenting adults want to do together is perfectly moral.
     
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  4. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    Question for any Bible believing Christian: Why does the man with the clerical collar in the large building down the street have any authority over what I do with my genitals behind closed doors let alone some ancient tome that sits on my bookshelf collecting dust that's not even well written?
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2018
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  5. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I put some time into this question in another thread some time ago.

    From a Christian perspective - meaning in this case "A follower of the teachings Christ" - which is rare in Christianity these days - there is nothing stated by Jesus against sex before marriage.

    Paul said many things that conflicted with the teachings of Jesus. This is not surprising given Paul never knew Jesus and did was not part of the Church of Jerusalem (Church founded by the disciples and led by James after the death of Jesus).

    The question I ask is then "what did Jesus say" on the issue. The answer is not much. Some will try and claim that the passage where Jesus refers to adultery as looking at a woman in lust refers to sex before marriage but .. if this were the case Jesus would not have used the word "Adultery".

    The word wife and woman can mean the same thing in Greek "Context matters". In context then - Jesus is referring to lusting after a married woman. There is no other reasonable interpretation of this passage.

    If we look at the Bible as a whole .. .and Yes .. the OT is part of the Bible. The term adultery was actually something that only applied to a married woman having sex - with someone who was not her husband or vice versa .. a man having sex with a married woman who was not his wife.

    The married man was free to have sex outside of marriage. All the Patriarchs had concubines or other wives and it was perfectly fine .. as was a man going with a prostitute.

    Women were taken as slaves "sex slaves". In one passage a son is given a "slave" for sex - practices I guess. "A man should not have sex with a slave if she is betrothed to another man - but if they do, she is to be scourged (beaten) and he must sacrifice a sheep (Leviticus 19:20-22) but if not betrothed - it is all good in the hood :)

    We see later transcribers (the improper use of the word Fornication is a prime example) desperately try to change the wording to fit the Bible into their dogma. The passage in Proverbs 6:26 for example:

    Some translations: KJV is one of the worst - "For by means of a whorish woman a man is brought to a piece of bread: and the adulteress will hunt for the precious life"

    Proper translations: "A man can hire a prostitute for the price of a loaf of bread, but adultery will cost him all he has"

    Why is one correct and the other a joke ? Well if one reads the passage the "son" is being warned about adultery. It goes on and on about the dangers of adultery.

    What follows this passage is:
    The message is clear ... better to go with a prostitute than sleep with another mans wife.. A prostitute will cost you only the price of a loaf of bread ... Adultery will cost you everything - even your life.

    The translators were desperate to not condone prostitution. " a man is brought/ reduced to a piece of bread" what a bunch of laughable nonsense.

    Paul's position on women was also nonsense. Women should not speak in Church or be teachers. There are women Prophets in the OT. If YHWH did not have a problem with it .. why does Paul.

    Women were property in days of the OT.. taking another mans wife was akin to a really bad form of stealing .. using his property without permission.
     
  6. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Donor

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    Back then (and even sometimes today), stealing another man's wife could push that man to extreme anger and murder.

    Thus, if you were stealing another man's wife you were in a way responsible for that sin.

    The death penalty for adultery was the only way in that society to preserve social order, otherwise you'd have bitter husbands taking things into their own hands, and then it would have led to revenge feuds between the different tribes.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2018
  7. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    OK but the topic is sex outside of marriage (between non married couples - where neither is married) ... whether it is OK or verbotten.
     
  8. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    If you aren't a Christian, none. I believe this question was addressed to Christians. God's plan for sex, which He invented, has always been for it to be between a married man and woman in a lifelong marriage relationship.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2018
  9. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    Correct. They move from authority to threats. Call it free will if you like, we are still talking about the same thing: go through the motions of worship or suffer eternal torture.
     
  10. Guess Who

    Guess Who Well-Known Member

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    There are moral atheist too ya know. and if it is not immoral it is at the least hurtful to those who happen to love someone and don't want to share them with others .
    Not to speak of what it does to children of broken homes.
     
  11. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    Man, you have a good imagination. Nothing was mentioned of threats. Also, at least in Catholic Christianity, forgiveness for sin is a relatively simple thing to get.
     
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  12. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    Who is recommending going through the motions? Christianity is a relationship, not a religion. How can it be a threat if atheists don't even believe in God? Muslims probably think we Christians are going to hell. I don't take it as a threat, I just ignore it. Now a jihadi pointing a gun at my head saying, "Convert or die" is a threat.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2018
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  13. CourtJester

    CourtJester Well-Known Member

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    God got Mary pregnant outside of marriage. Some example!
     
  14. pjohns

    pjohns Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps I did not make myself entirely clear. And for that, I apologize.

    Adultery (moichea, in the Greek) is, indeed, sinful. No argument there.

    But is other nonmarital sex (not necessarily premarital sex--as that assumes that the two people in question will ultimately marry each other) always immoral? (I did, at least, state "always" in the OP.")
     
  15. pjohns

    pjohns Well-Known Member

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    This is a good point.
     
  16. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Donor

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    I have a question right back.

    The woman you have sex with,.
    1. Did you ply her with drugs or alcohol?
    2. Were your hands all over her or did she suddenly say to you, I truly want sex and with you?
    3, Was there foreplay?
    4. Who started it?
     
  17. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    The simple answer to all those questions is that I currently don't have a sex life.

    Those questions are irrelevant. If they are to say that Christians are the ones with moral values, that's very weak.
     
  18. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    Christianity requires ritual and ceremony. More than mere Bible reading and prayer in the morning. It requires dipping your forehead in water and gathering with believers at least once a year and eat the bread and drink the wine. Then there is of course the standing before an "authority" figure with your partner to make vows before an audience.

    I shared this story twice, but I have a story about being forced to worship: The first time I refused to partake of the bread and wine I had to threaten my mother and ex wife that if they forced me into church, I'd shout out loud that I'm there against my will. It was the only way they would take no for an answer.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2018
  19. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Donor

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    it is actually really not related to christians. But since you have no sex life, I see why you did not reply to my questions to those with a sex life.
     
  20. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Donor

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    It is wrong to force any person to attend church.
     

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