Unmarried sexual relations

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by pjohns, Nov 14, 2018.

  1. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    "Dogma" dogma is simply the established authoritative beliefs. "Fundamentalist" is the core beliefs (the foundational dogma) that can be generally traced directly to the original document or person.

    Fundamental beliefs are by nature the hardest to change. They have withstood the test of time and review. To change a fundamental concept often means a change to the fundamental nature of the religion.

    A lot of people don't like fundamental beliefs which is why they ridicule them, and why they use "dogma" and "fundamentalist" as perjortive terms.

    Sex is to be between a man and a woman who have a monogamous relationship. Sex does not have to lead to children.

    No, God has not created arbitrary rules. What I tried to explain is that some rules have a clear secular component (such as the quarantine rules), while others have no secular component (such as prayer, or the belief in the resurrection of Jesus).

    The world is both physical and spiritual and to live in the best way possible people have to deal with both aspects. Gods rules address both aspects.


    Its not my personal opinion and interpretation, its the beliefs that are held by many millions of people and beliefs which have withstood the tests of time and review. I did not create my own personal religion, I joined an existing religion. There are entire libraries of research and thought supporting these beliefs.

    Christianity is a binary religion - Christianity is the one true religion, all others are false. That means that fundamental Christian beliefs carry great weight, and non-Christian beliefs carry no weight.

    There are other variations of Christianity, but with most (most, not all) the differences are not that significant. Methodist, Lutheran, Catholic, Baptist, Assembly of God, Anglican, all have common core beliefs, the variations are generally in organizational issues (how services are performed, whether pastors/priests should be married or should never be married or should be men, whether infants can be baptized, etc.).



    During the time of Jesus, divorce was controversial. It was a major social and religious issue. Jesus wanted to make it clear that divorce was not acceptable except under the one exception described by Moses. Thats why he said that if a man divorces his wife then he is a party to the the wife's adultery.

    Notice in Matthew 5 he is talking to religious Jews, not to atheists or non-Jews. The context of his talk is the Mosaic Law.

    In Christianity, since a persons sins are wiped away when they are reborn, all past sins including divorce are wiped clean.

    But does divorce really matter outside the people getting divorced? Partly. Its subjective. If a Christian marries and remarries repeatedly, thats a chronic abuse and I would put it in the incorrigible activity category and the person should be avoided as a corrupting influence.
     
  2. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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    it's the "chicken or the egg scenario"... is the individual sad because of the sex or they were already sad before the sex(not having sex can also make one very sad)...blaming sex for sadness is silly imo..sex and how one views it is very cultural, in some social circles it's not a big deal it's as natural as eating, in others it's fraught with morality issues...
     
  3. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Puritans and religious zealots are always trying to justify their ideology. How often do we hear "the decline of religiosity is the problem in the cause of all the problems this nation is facing" ? Some religious leaders have gone as fare as to suggest that hurricanes are a punishment from God for turning away from the Church. Ridiculous.
     
  4. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    People say don't mess with my lifestyle, then expect the rest of us in society to pick up the pieces, i.e. the tremendous societal fallout from bastard children.
     
  5. pjohns

    pjohns Well-Known Member

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    The beliefs of, say, the Methodist Church and the Episcopalian Church could hardly be described as "fundamentalist." Yet they are "core beliefs" to these churches.

    I agree with you that sex should be between a man and a woman--in other words, heterosexual in nature. (Nowhere will you ever find me defending homosexual relations.)

    And I am glad that we agree, also, that sex does not need to lead to birthing children.

    Mainline Christianity is also "an existing religion."

    You appear to believe that only fundamentalist Christianity is established.

    To declare that all these have "common core beliefs" is not entirely correct. For instance, the Assembly of God is a charismatic church (based upon the "speaking in tongues" of the early church, outlined in Acts 2). And infant baptism is predicated upon the belief that all are born as sinners (not merely with a sinful nature); so even infants are guilty, and require cleansing. (It is basically a nod to the tenets of Calvinism.)

    These are not insignificant issues.

    And to speak of the "Baptist" Church--without any further description--is altogether too broad. There are many Baptist Churches--including (but not limited to) the Free Will Baptist Church; the Southern Baptist Church; the Missionary Baptist Church; the Independent Baptist Church; the Primitive Baptist Church; et. al.

    Some of these even have directly contradictory views. For instance, the Southern Baptist Church believes in the doctrine of "once saved, always saved" (a.k.a. "the impossibility of apostasy," or "the perserverance of the saints," in Calvinist terms). On the other hand, the Free Will Baptist Church believes that it is possible for a believer to fall from grace--i.e. to be "un-saved" (cf. Heb. 6 :4-6; II Pet. 2:22).
     
  6. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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    yeah let's not talk about the tremendous societal fallout of the millions who have died due to religious persecution, bastard children being so much worse...lol
     
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  7. delade

    delade Well-Known Member

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    Where would these 2 persons 'meet' to be able to get into 1 place to have 'sexual intercourse' outside of 'marriage'?
     
  8. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    Where did Jesus say to do that? What does it prove, that religion is bad? I guess atheism is worse then, considering it killed 100,000,000+.

    You don't judge a philosophy by its misuse.
     
  9. delade

    delade Well-Known Member

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    Where would these 2 persons 'meet' to be able to get into 1 place to have 'sexual intercourse' outside of 'marriage'?


    So.. is 'fornication' wrong? As in going out and 'hooking' up? Like one night encounters? The internet is filled with them..


    I don't know.. How do you think they will fare?


    Let's rephrase the question of 'is fornication wrong' to 'can fornication be dangerous'?


    But what is, dangerous? Do you mean as in 'dangerous' criminals? What do you mean by 'dangerous'?

    Ever have an illness that does not go away? Or ever lose consciousness without knowing why? Could losing consciousness be 'dangerous'?

    Okay, so the person would adapt to the new situation.. Loss of job, loss of driving rights, loss of, 'life'?


    Is losing life for a some years of one night 'encounters' something that should be defended and condoned?

    And so the condom industry makes a 'boom' in sales and productions using certain ingredients which can raise an eyebrow. Dangerous? Could it lead to some kind of 'life' loss? The condoms, itself, I mean.

    Okay.. so maybe not 'life' loss but what about 'yeast infections'?

    Okay, okay,, but my daughter is wise enough to know these things..

    Wonderful.. God bless you.

    But what of every other?

    Okay.. but that's only a very small percentage.

    Okay.. you are right. But do most women who allows for condoms in their sexual life also use the ******?


    A ****** is a device used to introduce a stream of water into the body for medical or hygienic reasons, or the stream of water itself. ****** usually refers to vaginal irrigation, the rinsing of the vagina, but it can also refer to the rinsing of any body cavity. A ****** bag is a piece of equipment for douching—a bag for holding the fluid used in douching. To avoid transferring intestinal bacteria into the vagina, the same bag must not be used for an enema and a vaginal ******.

    Vaginal ******s may consist of water, water mixed with vinegar, or even antiseptic chemicals. Douching has been touted as having a number of supposed but unproven benefits. In addition to promising to clean the vagina of unwanted odors, it can also be used by women who wish to avoid smearing a sexual partner's penis with menstrual blood while having sexual intercourse during menstruation. In the past, douching was also used after intercourse as a method of birth control, though it is not effective (see below).

    Many health-care professionals state that douching is dangerous, as it interferes with both the vagina's normal self-cleaning and with the natural bacterial culture of the vagina, and it might spread or introduce infections. Douching is implicated in a wide variety of dangers, including: adverse pregnancy outcomes including ectopic pregnancy, low birth weight, preterm labor, preterm birth, and chorioamnionitis; serious gynecologic outcomes, including increased risk of cervical cancer, pelvic inflammatory disease, endometritis, and increased risk for sexually transmitted infections, including HIV; it also predisposes women to develop bacterial vaginosis (BV),[4] which is further associated with adverse pregnancy outcomes and increased risk of sexually transmitted infections.[5] Due to this, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services strongly discourages douching, citing the risks of irritation, bacterial vaginosis, and pelvic inflammatory disease (PID). Frequent douching with water may result in an imbalance of the pH of the vagina, and thus may put women at risk for possible vaginal infections, especially yeast infections.[6]

    In May 2003, a randomized, controlled, multi-center study was conducted with 1827 women ages 18–44 who were regular users of a ****** product and who had been treated recently for a sexually transmitted bacterial infection or bacterial vaginosis. Women were randomly assigned to use either a newly designed and marketed ****** product or a soft cloth towelette. There was little or no indication of a greater risk of PID among women assigned to use the ****** product (versus soft cloth towelette).[7]


    The "fountain syringe" is used for douching, by replacing the attached enema nozzle with the vaginal nozzle (shown bottom left). The vaginal nozzle is longer and thicker and has lateral holes
    Antiseptics used during douching disturb the natural balance of bacteria in the vagina and can cause infections.[8] Unclean douching equipment may introduce foreign bodies into the vagina. Douching may also wash bacteria into the uterus and Fallopian tubes, causing fertility problems.[9] For these reasons, the practice of douching is now strongly discouraged except when ordered by a physician for medical reasons


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/******



    Rectal douching (also known as anal douching) is the act of rinsing the rectum with intent to clean it, typically in preparation for anal sex. An instance of this rinsing or a tool used to perform the rinse may be called a rectal ******.

    Evidence is not clear, but it is possible that rectal douching before anal sex can increase the risk of transferring HIV.[1] There is evidence that douching sometimes can disrupt the epithelium, or tissue in the rectum, and if this tissue is damaged then HIV can spread more easily.[1]

    Rectal douching before anal sex increases the risk of transfer of Hepatitis B.[2]

    There are reports that activities which can have the side effect of causing unintentional forcing of water into the rectum, such as waterskiing, may cause discomfort but can potentially bring other harms.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rectal_douching

    ---


    Why is evidence unclear? Since when did men/or women use rectal ******s?


    So... is this something you would be okay with having a child learn and have to implement into their lives because of whatever reason they are faced with in current trends?

    And let's not forget the 'runoff' water going down the shower pipes.

    God forbid that there is any such thing as 'recycled water'.


    But looking at life on the 'brighter' side. When my mother or father or both come over for a visit, I will be sure to have purchased 'clean bottled water' for us to enjoy. The plastic water bottle? The BPA? Am I going to out of hand???


    You see, my mother and father, well they own a home. And their 'home water recycling' is in their jurisdiction. But when they come to visit me, well they are now under 'my' jurisdiction. Catch my drift?

    I can never figure out why their 'drinking water' tastes so much better than mine. I wonder if it has to do with the price of their house?


    It just gets really sickening when they estrange their own children due to the Society's desire to party party party..


    'Sorry, son.... sorry, daughter... you are just too abnormal for around here.. that's what everybody is saying and I have to believe them over you.. So please.. can you please try to be understanding'?


    'But ma, but pa, my drinking water tastes like 'fish'!' 'Well, not really fish, but 'fish water'.


    And life is good. Yes siree.. Life can be better.. But life is good.


    Where are the wise? Where are the scholars? Where are those that understand these things? They are in the 'better' places.


    I really cannot understand how a person can say 'no, it doesn't smell or taste like fish water when the readings show it is from the local stream'.


    Dorothy! click heels thrice and look up.




    It doesn't need to be a 'land way up high'.. It can be just over there.. ------------------------------------------->

    <-------------------------------------------------------------or over there..



    So, to try to add to your post... There are more things in life even from the purely Scriptural point of view than non married 'sex'.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018
  10. pjohns

    pjohns Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure that I understand your question.

    They might meet through a mutual friend; or through a dating service; or...well, through any number of other ways.
     
  11. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    You do know , don't you, that NT Greek is Modern Greek and not the Greek in use in 30 AD.?
     
  12. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I dont understand what you mean in differentiating contemporary Christian vs purely Christian...

    But my take is that The Bible lays out 10 things that are sins, and a whole bunch of other stuff that God advises to avoid because it either tends to lead to sin or tends to lead to suffering.

    Adultery: cheating on your spouse with another person, is a sin, so saeth God in the 10 Commandments. I think we can reasonably extend that to committed couples, as the betrayal is no less emotionally predictable or severe.

    Premarital sex is only concretely sinful if we consider it adulterous- ie, you're cheating on your future spouse. This creates the obvious loophole that this sin can be avoided if only one vows to never be married or commit into a relationship. I don't think thats what God intended, so I think its more reasonable to view premarital sex as not necessarily sinful, at least not in and of itself.

    Though I do think the following circumstances make it sinful:
    -creating a pregnancy that you're unwilling or unable to care for
    -carelessly spreading disease
    -creating or allowing false pretences (leading someone on regarding a relationship when all you want is sex)
    -probably others I can't think of atm
    I believe these make premarital sex sinful when applicable. Sex can also lead to unanticipated emotional attatchment which can lead to suffering when it isn't mutual. This may not be sinful, but it is hurtful, and one of the reasons I believe we're advised to avoid premarital sex.

    To summarize, I don't believe premarital sex is automatically a sin. But I do believe God wants us to avoid it because of the multitude of problems associated with it.

    I believe similarly regarding alcohol, gambling and homosexuality- all things The Bible portrays in a similarly negative light as premarital sex, yet does not specifically define as sins.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2018
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  13. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    That post raises issues which may take a lot of posts to address, so my response is going to be short but hopefully helpful.

    Fundamental beliefs are by definition a part of the very nature of the belief. For example, the belief that Jesus died and was resurrected and that salvation is through grace are fundamental beliefs (and are the 2 beliefs that set Christianity apart from other religions). If a system does not contain those 2 core beliefs, then it is not Christian no matter what it calls itself or how many times it references Jesus or the bible.

    <>

    On "once saved always saved", there is no formal doctrine in the Southern Baptist that makes that claim because it does not have a clear biblical foundation. Believing it or not is also not required for salvation or to walk the Christian path. That puts it outside the core or fundamental beliefs of Christianity.

    Since Christianity is voluntary, then I believe a person can renounce their salvation (there is a precedent since Satan was created a leader among angels and initially worshiped God, and later obviously rejected God). But deliberately renouncing is not the same as a Christian "stumbling" and going through a phase of sinful activity, that person is still saved.

    <>

    On tongues and the Assembly of God, the Assembly of God believes that a baptised person will show some sign of the Holy Spirit when baptised, notably they will speak in tongues. They have their reason for that belief and they have made it a requirement (speaking in tongues when baptised) in their church in order to hold certain positions of authority.

    I think its on a weak foundation since salvation is between the individual and God, and is not granted or approved by any other person. Plus tongues is only one gift and not everyone has tongues. What the AoG is looking for is an earthly sign of salvation as a bulwark against putting unsaved people in authority.

    But like "once saved", its one possible sign of salvation and not actually a requirement for salvation or to walk the Christian path. There are Christians in the AoG.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2018
  14. pjohns

    pjohns Well-Known Member

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    I think this is a well-considered post.

    I would just note that "premarital" sex is not necessarily the same as "nonmarital" sex (to which I referred). The former seems to suggest that marriage (of the two people involved--to each other) is inevitable; and perhaps soon. The latter assumes nothing of the sort.

    And I am not at all sure that homosexuality is not specifically condemned. See, for instance, Paul's words in Romans 1:26f; I Corinthians 6:9f; and I Timothy 1:9f.

    As for alcohol, it is in a rather dicey category, in my opinion: Some people trying it will end up as mere social drinkers--they will handle it very well--whereas others will become alcoholics. And there is no way to be sure, in advance, just which one will become.
     
  15. raytri

    raytri Well-Known Member

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    Please explain the "tremendous societal fallout from bastard children." Be specific. Cite sources.
     
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  16. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Atheism did not kill 100 million + unsubstantiated gibberish is not an argument for much.
     
  17. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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    i won't get into debating your ridiculous number of deaths you falsely contribute to non-deists(atheists)...but the truth of the matter is non deists rarely kill anyone for their religious beliefs(despite being persecuted by religious nutters for centuries, hitler an extreme right wing christian being the worst)non deists don't care what tooth fairy you grovel to, we only want you to keep your silly fables to yourselves and leave us rational people alone...
     
  18. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Don't be silly. Abstinence prior to marriage is universal, and is common in almost ALL human cultures. It has nothing to do with religion. It's purely a means of determining parentage.
     
  19. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If marriage is so important in sex....why did God make Lilith?
     
  20. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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    there would be no tavern wenches without Lilith's :banana:

    here's to all the Lilith's of the world who make it a better place!
    [​IMG]
     
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  21. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sex before marriage is also nearly universal and is common in all human cultures. It has nothing to do with religion - it is simply a desire to shag !
     
  22. CourtJester

    CourtJester Well-Known Member

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    Peopke do tend to forget that sex is very pleasurable. It may be a bit more deeply meaningful with a marriage vow but it is a hell of a lot of fun even without one.
     
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  23. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Sure. I'm only referring to this whacky idea that abstinence outside of marriage is the special imperative of a specific religion. It ain't.
     
  24. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    On that we agree ... this likely has some anthropological reason "Behavioral adaptations as a solution to survival problems".
     
  25. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    It's 100% practicalities. Tribal survival and cohesion etc.
     

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