Use of deadly force in New York

Discussion in 'Law & Justice' started by Ronstar, Apr 28, 2018.

  1. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Messages:
    74,981
    Likes Received:
    7,197
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I have been studying the use of deadly force in NY.

    According to the law cited below, its a little confusing.

    http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article35.htm

    We can clearly use force to defend ourselves or another from illegal violence , unless escape is possible. We are not required to attempt to escape if we are at home.

    We can use force to detain someone that we witnessed commit a crime or we know for sure has committed a crime, so as to hold them for the police to come and formally arrest them.

    Deadly force is more...iffy.

    We cannot use deadly force to simply protect property, unless the suspect is carrying a weapon that we believe will be used against us to commit deadly harm.

    But....it appears we can use deadly force to prevent a robbery at our home or place of business? This is where I dont fully understand.
     
  2. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    3,299
    Likes Received:
    840
    Trophy Points:
    113
    In NY, even if you were following the guidelines of the law it's very likely they would still arrest you, and possibly even end up getting charged and convicted. Public opinion in that area does not look favorably on the right to self-defense or using deadly force.

    This is something a lot of people don't understand. You don't have to break the law to be arrested, charged and convicted.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2018
  3. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Messages:
    74,981
    Likes Received:
    7,197
    Trophy Points:
    113
    no, lots of folks have used deadly force in NY to defend themselves or their homes and have not even been indicted for a crime.

    happens often. even in NYC.
     
  4. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    3,299
    Likes Received:
    840
    Trophy Points:
    113
    And a few have been.

    Unless the other person is posing an absolutely clear and imminent danger, such that it's obvious someone has a very high probability of going to be killed, and they're already committing a serious crime on top of that, it's playing a crapshoot if you decide to stop them.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2018
  5. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Messages:
    74,981
    Likes Received:
    7,197
    Trophy Points:
    113
    if the person is possessing a weapon, you're Scot free.

    if he does not have a weapon, u may have a problem.

    i remember hearing about a home owner who shot and killed a burglar in Queens, and no charges were pressed.

    i think the main thing is you have to be able to elaborate the threat u faced and why u felt deadly force was neccessary.

    i geuss if the guy was coming at you with a screwdriver, that works.
     
  6. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    3,299
    Likes Received:
    840
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I wonder how many homeowners have simply placed a weapon in the dead hands of the intruder they killed to lessen the chances of getting into legal trouble, with things in the NY justice system being the way they are. They might have seen a dark colored object in the burglar's hands that resembled a gun, not extremely uncommon. These situations can happen extremely fast, and often it's happening in the darkness where the homeowner (in many cases elderly with not the best eyesight) can't see clearly.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2018
  7. Seth Bullock

    Seth Bullock Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2015
    Messages:
    7,288
    Likes Received:
    3,355
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Ron, robbery is theft by means of force or the threat of force against a person. It is regarded as a “person crime”, not a “property crime”. This is why deadly physical force may be used against a person who is threatening to shoot you if you don’t give him the money, as opposed to someone who has broken into your parked, unoccupied car to steal to steal it or something inside it.
     
  8. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Messages:
    74,981
    Likes Received:
    7,197
    Trophy Points:
    113
    so breaking into someone's home and trying to steal stuff is not "robbery"?

    i thought it was.
     
  9. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Messages:
    74,981
    Likes Received:
    7,197
    Trophy Points:
    113
    2. A person may not use deadly physical force upon another person
    under circumstances specified in subdivision one unless:

    ----
    The actor reasonably believes that such other person is using or
    about to use deadly physical force. Even in such case, however, the
    actor may not use deadly physical force if he or she knows that with
    complete personal safety, to oneself and others he or she may avoid the
    necessity of so doing by retreating; except that the actor is under no
    duty to retreat if he or she is:

    ----
    He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing
    or attempting to commit a burglary, and the circumstances are such that
    the use of deadly physical force is authorized by subdivision three of
    section 35.20.

    ---
    A person in possession or control of, or licensed or privileged to
    be in, a dwelling or an occupied building, who reasonably believes that
    another person is committing or attempting to commit a burglary of such
    dwelling or building
    , may use deadly physical force upon such other
    person when he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to
    prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of such
    burglary.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2018
  10. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Messages:
    74,981
    Likes Received:
    7,197
    Trophy Points:
    113
    so based on what i posted above, i can use deadly force to prevent someone from stealing stuff from my home that he illegally entered?

    from what NY law i see, burglary need not be committed with a weapon to be burglary

    140.20 Burglary in the third degree.
    A person is guilty of burglary in the third degree when he knowingly
    enters or remains unlawfully in a building with intent to commit a crime
    therein.


    http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article140.htm
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2018
  11. Seth Bullock

    Seth Bullock Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2015
    Messages:
    7,288
    Likes Received:
    3,355
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    No. It’s burglary. But if they break into your home and threaten you to give them your money it’s burglary and robbery. They are two distinctly different crimes.
     
  12. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Messages:
    74,981
    Likes Received:
    7,197
    Trophy Points:
    113
    so i can shoot someone if they trespass in my home or my work with the intent to steal something and refuse to stop trying to steal stuff? even in NY?

    huh.

    but if someone trespasses, tries to steal stuff, and then drops the stuff and runs away, i can't shoot him just cause he is getting away.

    i can only shoot him to stop him from continuing to try to steal my stuff in my home or tries to hurt me or someone else with a deadly weapon.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2018
  13. Maccabee

    Maccabee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2016
    Messages:
    7,042
    Likes Received:
    408
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    You don't know what the badguy's intent is. If he's merely tresspassing in your yard then unless he's posing a threat to you then you can't shoot him. However if he's in your home while you're inside then you have every right to assume he's there to harm you and your family.
    He's no longer a threat unless while he's running away he's shooting at you.
    Yes.
     
  14. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Messages:
    74,981
    Likes Received:
    7,197
    Trophy Points:
    113
    what if he's running away with my stuff?
     
  15. Maccabee

    Maccabee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2016
    Messages:
    7,042
    Likes Received:
    408
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Too bad. Your stuff is insured. You can't use deadly force but you can chase after him (though it's highly ill advised).
     
  16. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Messages:
    74,981
    Likes Received:
    7,197
    Trophy Points:
    113
    so i can use deadly force to prevent a burglary but i cant use deadly force to stop him from running away with my stuff? i dont see the difference.
     
  17. Maccabee

    Maccabee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2016
    Messages:
    7,042
    Likes Received:
    408
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    If he's in your homr while you're in it, it'sa home invasion, not a burgalry. With a home invasion you have little to no escape routes and you are at the mercy of the invader. If he's running away, however, he is no longer posing a threat to you.
     
  18. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Messages:
    74,981
    Likes Received:
    7,197
    Trophy Points:
    113
    burglary means trespassing with intent to commit a crime.

    trespassing in my home so as to steal my stuff, is burglary
     
  19. Maccabee

    Maccabee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2016
    Messages:
    7,042
    Likes Received:
    408
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Burglary is when a criminal enters your house when you're not around here in Florida. Home invasion robbery is when you're inside.
     
  20. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Messages:
    74,981
    Likes Received:
    7,197
    Trophy Points:
    113
    law in NY says burglary is illegal entry in order to commit another crime
     

Share This Page