Vaccinated who are in hospital have a higher chance of dying

Discussion in 'Coronavirus Pandemic Discussions' started by kazenatsu, Sep 12, 2021.

  1. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It appears that people who have been vaccinated who end up requiring hospitalization for Covid-19 have a higher chance of dying.

    This might sound a little bit paradoxical, but keep in mind this does not automatically mean people who are vaccinated have a higher chance of dying. It just means if the vaccine didn't protect people from getting extremely sick, those people probably had a higher chance of dying anyway.

    The chance of death for a vaccinated person in the hospital is 18.2%, compared to somewhere between 6.5 to 13.6% for all patients hospitalized for Covid-19.



    4,115 people have been hospitalized or died with Covid-19 despite being fully vaccinated.
    The total number of individuals who died after contracting Covid-19 despite vaccination is 750. 76% of hospitalizations and deaths from breakthrough cases occurred in people over the age of 65.​

    Covid breakthrough cases: CDC says more than 4,100 people have been hospitalized or died after vaccination (cnbc.com) June 25, 2021

    750 out of 4115 people is 18.2%. This means that 18.2% of people who were hospitalized for Covid-19 despite having been vaccinated ended up dying.


    This cohort study of patients with COVID-19 who were admitted to US medical centers revealed high in-hospital mortality of 13.6%. However, over the course of the pandemic, there was a reduction in mortality of more than 15 percentage points between March (22.1%) and August (6.5%). The in-hospital mortality in the current study was similar to that reported in other published US studies. Mortality increased in association with increasing age. Patients 80 years or older represented the age group with the highest mortality, with 76% of the deaths in patients over the age of 65.​

    Outcomes and Mortality Among Adults Hospitalized With COVID-19 at US Medical Centers | Critical Care Medicine | JAMA Network Open | JAMA Network

    Although this study did not look specifically at unvaccinated people, we are repeatedly told that most of those who are hospitalized are unvaccinated.

    This comparison indicates that hospitalization rates are not necessarily an indicator of death. Vaccinated persons could still be 64% less likely to require hospitalization and yet still have the exact same chance of dying as unvaccinated persons, as a hypothetical example.
     
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  2. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  3. Darth Gravus

    Darth Gravus Banned

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    You seem to have missed this...but the CDC noted that 142 of those fatalities were asymptomatic or unrelated to Covid-19

    That drops the percent down to 14.8%, which is pretty much the average for all deaths.

    And according to you other thread on this, you are 10 times more likely to wind up in the hospital if you are unvaccinated.

    So, I have to admit I am not sure what point you are trying to make with all of this.
     
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  4. Kranes56

    Kranes56 Well-Known Member

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    crank likes this.
  5. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Even if we decided to exclude that 142, that would still leave 608, and out of 4115, that would be 14.7%.

    Anyway, I think it is unrealistic to assume that absolutely none of those 142 patients died from Covid. It just means they had other co-occurring diseases that could likely have been the cause of their death. Or not unlikely the Covid could have hastened their death in someone who was already dying and probably didn't have more than 2 years to live. And who knows what this vaccine does. It could have been suppressing obvious symptoms but still allowing the virus to kill an elderly person with a vulnerable immune system.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
  6. Darth Gravus

    Darth Gravus Banned

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    which is why this was my next sentence.

    That drops the percent down to 14.8%, which is pretty much the average for all deaths.
     
  7. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Most COVID deaths in England now are in the vaccinated

    More vaccinated people are dying of COVID than unvaccinated people, according to a recent report from Public Health England. The report shows that 163 of the 257 people (63.4%) who died of the delta variant within 28 days of a positive COVID test between February 1 and June 21, had received at least one dose of the vaccine.

    70% of the population in the UK was vaccinated at the time of this study.
    (source for that: COVID-19: More than 70% of UK adults have now had a first coronavirus vaccine dose, Sky News, May 19, 2021)

    Now of course we know that those who were more vulnerable were more likely to receive the vaccine, but the numbers are still not looking all that wonderful here.

    I mean one could do a little quick calculation and see that this suggests the unvaccinated are only 25.3% more likely to die from the delta variant than the general population.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
  8. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Except the average death rate for all Covid patients in the hospital has now dropped to 6.5%.

    I wonder if it has also dropped for the vaccinated who are in the hospital?
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
  9. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Do you genuinely not understand what's going on in that UK example?

    If not, here it is. When the majority of your population is vaccinated, then it's mostly vaccinated people who'll be getting COVID .. obviously. And in that infected/vaccinated cohort, there will always be some who can't be saved by vaccines due to very fragile health.

    The number you need in order to understand how powerful the vaccines are, is the extrapolated figure for Delta deaths in an unvaccinated population. It would be orders of magnitude greater than it is.
     
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  10. Darth Gravus

    Darth Gravus Banned

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    And the 14.8% was from before June, so who knows how low it is now.
     
  11. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think only just a little bit more than 70% of the population had been vaccinated at the time of that study.

    If the vaccines were really so incredibly effective, the percentage of deaths that were in the vaccinated shouldn't have been that high.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
  12. Darth Gravus

    Darth Gravus Banned

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    70% is the majority. Trust me on this one.
     
  13. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So 70% of the population gets the vaccine, and 63.4% of those who died were vaccinated.

    Did you do the math on that one?
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
  14. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And isn't it very suspicious all these studies that are coming from other countries don't look as good as the studies in the US?
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
  15. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Total percent of Covid deaths that died specifically from Covid is 6%.

    Two biggest indicators someone will die is obesity and vitamin D deficiency.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
  16. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Why? There is always a percentage of our populations that can't be saved due to very fragile health. You can provide all the medical science possible, and they'll still die. If that weren't true, people with enough money could buy immortality. There's a point past which none of us can travel.

    The point of the vaccine is that it prevents almost all but those very fragile people from becoming severely ill. It cuts that likelihood down by around 90%. What you're seeing in the UK (and Israel etc) is that small cohort of unsaveables, and probably also a good few who'd only received one dose of vaccine - and thus only had about 30-50% protection.

    While it would be lovely to think the vaccine is 100% effective at preventing death, that's just unrealistic. Besides, 90%+ is very ****ing good!
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
  17. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    So which nation is the odd one out?
     
  18. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The article I linked to says that:
    "The risk of dying from COVID doubles roughly every 7 years older a patient is. An unvaccinated 70-year-old would be 32 times more likely to die of COVID than an unvaccinated 35-year-old."

    "Due to their age, a vaccinated 70-year-old is still at greater risk from COVID-19 than an unvaccinated 35-year-old."
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
  19. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Or less depending on which vaccine and time from vaccination.
     
  20. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    What don't you understand about the math yourself?

    If 70% of your population has brown eyes, then something close to that number will be found to die with brown eyes.
     
  21. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Just read that a study was done on hospitalized Covid patients and found that 40% to 45% were in the hospital for something else entirely and incidentally tested positive for Covid but not treated for it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
  22. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If the vaccine is so good, then the percentage of those who are dying who were vaccinated should not be very similar to the percentage of the population who are vaccinated. Would you not agree?
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
  23. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    What? You're failing the math, badly.
     
  24. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    Wow, National Public Radio! So well known for truth and accuracy. :lol:

    I wonder if those federal employees were exempted by F Biden's usurping decree last week?
     
  25. Kranes56

    Kranes56 Well-Known Member

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    They’re quoting the CDC. Perhaps you should answer your own question if you are so inclined to ask it.
     

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