Victims of pedophile priests and imams help create more victims with silence.

Victims of pedophile priests and imams help create more victims with silence.

I recently watched this disturbing movie and recognize that what it portrays fairly closely what is happenings in reality right now.

https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=fQaNVNrJDInB8gfpqIDACw&gws_rd=ssl#q=spotlight+trailer

The silence and complicity of the religious are facilitating and colluding in the future assaults on children. Silence or the acceptance of a payoff, in my opinion, is direct collusion with these religious criminals and I see the past victims of these pedophiles as now helping their own assailants create new victims by their silence.

I appreciate that going public is hard, but if victims do not come forward, I see them as helping the priests and imams that are left free to abuse other children.

There are some who will read this and know that in a real sense victims are guilty of helping the pedophile problem continue.

I would urge these victims and their families to step up and do the right thing and return the payoffs and lay charges instead so that we can rid our churches and mosques of these predatory criminals.

Do you agree that silence is just as immoral as the initial crime when victims accept payoffs from religions to buy their silence?

Regards
DL

 

I cannot imagine what it would be like to be in the victims position, the stigma and ridicule that was often applied to them often by the community that they live in is enormous.

Sadly this abuse happened to someone I cared deeply about, she was questioned by a group of elders, shunned by her family and left with no option but to return to the abuser, all this at the age of 13. In later life when I met her It never stopped effecting her or her son, who was told he would burn in hell by his loving godly grandparents. I always encouraged her to tell the world about what had happened to her, and I never held back from confronting the ones who silenced her after she took her own life. Would I hold her morally as guilty as her abusers, no. Do I hold the ones who silenced her as just as morally guilty, certainly.

 

Most child victims are minors and subject to their parents decisions. The child victims hold a minimum of blame for the silence and acceptance of the payoff for their silence. The parents and church hold the vast majority of it.

All are going against the Golden Rule that would have us all try to protect each of the from predators in our communities.

My view, even for the example you gave above, is that if she had been warned by a previous victim who did not take a payoff and who had laid a charge, she may not have been victimized at all.

Also, if your friend had laid a charge, the next victim to the predator would be warned and would be protected.

To not report or lay a charge thus allows for the certainty of many more victims and that is not a moral way to go.

Regards
DL

 

I do not know any Christians who would agree to cover this up. The OP is using a very broad brush in his attempt to paint Christians as evil.

 

Jehovahs Witnesses, Newquay, Cornwall whether you count them as Christians I do not know.

 

Not quite sure why you do not just broaden this discussion to discuss all child sexual abuse victims , all their predators rather than just those who were victimized by clergy. Every point you are attempting to make, applies equally to scenarios that do not involve clerics, churches etc. In any case, I agree with your premise that silence often breeds to more victimization and coming forward can be bring closure, successful early prosecutions, and law enforcement and DA's ought to encourage cooperation. You did let your rhetoric run untethered. First, refusing to report crime, or to testify is not collusion at all. You need to read the definition more carefully to see what is missing. 'Payoff' is a strong term when a victim of a crime is getting compensation in a legal settlement agreement whether there is a gag agreement in place or not.

This whole decision is basically about measuring risks. There are lots of risks to coming forward and continuing pursuit of 'justice' and one of the risks involves affording treatment and financial costs associated with the trauma and time loss. One thing any parent is going to know is that their 14 year old is going to require extensive and long term treatment for PTSD and related psychological devastation for years. That has to be paid for and considering how insurance companies handle mental health claims in this country, you are on your own in trying to fund those weekly and bi-weekly appointments, possible drug therapy and associated costs. there are also ancillary costs including attorney fees, time from work etc.

A more important risk involves potential increased trauma to the victim. The timetable for law enforcement and the DA's office, just does not correspond to the timetable for PTSD recovery and if the victim is not ready or able to handle the process, you may be doing more harm than good by pressuring the victim, especially if the community surrounding the victim and family is non-supportive or outright hostile. Personally, I'd be paying a lot of attention to what the victim says he can handle, and even more to what his counselor says is the best approach in this specific case, with this victim. That may not coincide with what the DA wants.

As for your last sentence, " Silence is just as immoral as the initial crime when victims accept payoffs from religions to buy their silence", its just outrageous. You cannot compare the actual rape of a child to any of this. The motive, or intent is the mirror opposite in these parties, and there is zero risk the rapist incurs, by not raping. There are real and palpable risks these victims and their guardians incur if they do testify or if they do not accept the settlement offer. These people are normally trying to make the best decisions possible in the face of a cruel, vicious, and often repeated crime. However they decide, that is not the same moral plain as the decision to commit the crime.

 

Of course you do not know any. They have been hidden by a church non-disclosure agreement. They prefer to keep the cash instead of showing themselves.

They cannot hide though.

Quite a lot of info here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_sexual_abuse_cases

In July 2008 the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Denver agreed "to pay $5.5 million to settle 18 claims of childhood sexual abuse."[109] The Associated Press estimated that the total from settlements of sex abuse cases from 1950 to 2007 to be more than $2 billion.[88] According to Bishop Accountability reports that figure reached more than $3 billion in 2012.[51][85]

Most sex abuse cases are subject to the laws of each individual state. As of April 2010 many sex abusers associated with the Church in several countries have been tried by secular authorities and some have been convicted and sentenced to imprisonment.

Addressing "a flood of abuse claims" five dioceses (Tucson, Arizona; Spokane, Washington; Portland, Oregon.; Davenport, Iowa, and San Diego) got bankruptcy protection.[88] Eight Catholic diocese have declared bankruptcy due to sex abuse cases from 2004 to 2011.[89]

According to Donald Cozzens, "by the end of the mid 1990s, it was estimated that [...] more than half a billion dollars had been paid in jury awards, settlements and legal fees." This figure grew to about one billion dollars by 2002.[110] Roman Catholics spent $615 million on sex abuse cases in 2007.[111]

As of March 2006, dioceses in which abuse was committed or in which abuse allegations were settled out of court had made financial settlements with the victims totaling over $1.5 billion.[101] The number and size of these settlements made it necessary for the dioceses to reduce their ordinary operating expenses by closing churches and schools in order to raise the funds to make these payments.[96] Several dioceses chose to declare Chapter 11 bankruptcy as a way to litigate settlements while protecting some church assets to ensure it continues to operate.

By 2009, U.S. dioceses have paid more than US$2.6 billion in abuse-related costs since 1950.[112][113]

In many instances, dioceses were forced to declare bankruptcy as a result of the settlements. At least six U.S. dioceses sought bankruptcy protection. In some cases, the dioceses filed bankruptcy just before civil suits against them were about to go to trial. This had the effect of mandating that pending and future lawsuits be settled in bankruptcy court. The sexual abuse scandal costs each of the 195 dioceses "an average of $300,000 annually."

Regards
DL

 

Not really a secret if you have so much information about it so where is the cover up? Are you also implying that the church should not have paid money to the victims?

 

Many good points.

I went with religious abuse because I can prove it easier than going for all abuse. I also see religions as having institutionalized hiding abuse and protecting the predators.

You may not like that I lay blame on the parents who are responsible for the child and a bit on the child himself but if you were to apply the Golden Rule to them, you would see that their responsibility to the community is to do unto others and that is to protect them from predators.

If the previous victim had laid a charge, that victim would likely not have been created and if the new victim lay s a charge, then the predators next victim needs not become a victim.

One instance of silence could create o whole chain of victims.

I am no morality expert but helping maintain that line of victims is immoral for all the victims that did not step up to the hard part of laying a charge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue

Societies have Good Samaritan and Duty to rescue laws for good and moral reasons.

Yet many are not recognizing the duty being ignored by not laying charges and just taking the payoff.

If I was a pedophile priest or imam, I would be smiling. I would love the idea that most people saw sex crimes against children as a form of prostitution where the price is negotiated by the parents after the crime.

Shame on those parents and shame on those who pay them off.

Regards
DL

 

They should have yes, but through the courts after jailing the perpetrators.

If payoffs are to be legal for pedophiles then discounts must be given to non-religious pedophiles because they do not have a huge church to help them out.

Your pay for your crime way would give benefits to rich pedophiles and make a sham of our legal system by creating a two tiered system. One for the rich would walk to their next victim and another for the poor who has to stay in jail.

Let me repeat.

Societies have Good Samaritan and Duty to rescue laws for good and moral reasons.

Yet most here are not recognizing the duty being ignored by not laying charges and just taking the payoff.

If I was a pedophile priest or imam, I would be smiling. I would love the idea that most people saw sex crimes against children as a form of prostitution where the price is negotiated by the parents after the crime.

Shame on those parents and shame on those who pay them off.

Regards
DL

P.S.
Watch that movie if you have the time.

 

So you are basically blaming the parents for not pressing charges. I see nothing illegal the church did to cover this up.

 

LOL, not country has anything close to a 'duty to lay charges' which is what you assert. There is zero connection between either a duty to rescue or a good Samaritan statute and what you are talking about. The former is just a liability shield for people who give immediate first aid to someone needing it. It does not assert any affirmative duty or obligation to do anything in any circumstance. You are not offering any legal protection for victims or parents who 'lay charges', they are stuck swinging in the wind. You might want to consider how you might make it easier on victims to come forward, but just declaring a moral obligation to do so, does not accomplish squat.

A 'duty to rescue' applies when one finds a victim in immediate physical harm or peril and it is pretty narrowly drawn. It does not imagine potential hypothetical victims and ask anyone to do anything because someday, someone may get hurt. Tort law does not do that. It expects a real live plaintiff to sue for actual damages. it does not deal with might- happen- some- day damages,

There is no duty to lay charges. The closest you can find, is a duty not to obstruct justice, and a duty to testify truthfully under oath.

 

I did not indicate illegality. I indicate immorality.

Do you believe that the Golden Rule is a good rule and do you see the parents and church going by it?

Should they?

Regards
DL

 

Are payoffs for silence not an obstruction to justice?

Or do you think justice is well served by the predator being free to find his next victim?

"You are not offering any legal protection for victims or parents who 'lay charges', they are stuck swinging in the wind."

Protection from what or whom?

Courts, depending on the type of case, often restrict the publishing of names so I am not sure what protections you are talking about.

Regards
DL

 

No. What you talking about are, by definition, legal settlement offers reflecting a negotiated compensation prior to a tort claim, which is separate from a criminal investigation which may not even have begun, because either the crime isn't even reported, or the defendant is not charged, this happens at such an early stage it hasn't even made it to a judge for a hearing. You are putting the cart before the horse.

Your problem is that you assume that 'justice' is the only value worth pursuing in this kind of situation, when there are other values that may be compromised. I am equally concerned with the welfare of the victim that already exists.

There are potential legal consequences to filing charges, if they are not sustained. The victim could actually end up being sued by the alleged perpetrator for one. Mostly, I am worried about the social and psychological damage the process can cause. If you are causing the local pastor to be arrested on charges of sexual abuse, its not going to take a muckraking reporter for word to get out through the family, the congregation, the entire town.

You are seeing a very simplistic picture, when this is an incredibly complicated situation, with layers upon layers of anguish and trauma. Sometimes a victim moving forward with a criminal complaint is cathartic, and helps the healing process by turning a victim mentality into a proactive and assertive emotional state. Other times it is destructive, premature or emotionally crippling. Its not up to you or I to determine how the victim or family should respond.

 

I agree that there are layers upon layers of anguish and trauma for victims.

"I am equally concerned with the welfare of the victim that already exists."

So am I and a huge amount of the anguish and trauma for victims would disappear if the first victims, and their guardians, would not just take the payoff for silence and throw future victims to the freed perpetrators.

You are the one taking the simplistic view of just looking at the one victim and ignoring the many others the initial victim is helping to create by his following his parents advise to take the cash.

Regards
DL

 

sadly many in the church did cover this kinda stuff up, moved preacher to new churches, ect... hard to believe, but sadly true

 

All Spooky needs do is google a bit to find what he says does not exist.

I have a few examples and hope you do not mind my putting them here.

Quite a lot of info here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_sexual_abuse_cases

In July 2008 the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Denver agreed "to pay $5.5 million to settle 18 claims of childhood sexual abuse."[109] The Associated Press estimated that the total from settlements of sex abuse cases from 1950 to 2007 to be more than $2 billion.[88] According to Bishop Accountability reports that figure reached more than $3 billion in 2012.[51][85]

Most sex abuse cases are subject to the laws of each individual state. As of April 2010 many sex abusers associated with the Church in several countries have been tried by secular authorities and some have been convicted and sentenced to imprisonment.

Addressing "a flood of abuse claims" five dioceses (Tucson, Arizona; Spokane, Washington; Portland, Oregon.; Davenport, Iowa, and San Diego) got bankruptcy protection.[88] Eight Catholic diocese have declared bankruptcy due to sex abuse cases from 2004 to 2011.[89]

According to Donald Cozzens, "by the end of the mid 1990s, it was estimated that [...] more than half a billion dollars had been paid in jury awards, settlements and legal fees." This figure grew to about one billion dollars by 2002.[110] Roman Catholics spent $615 million on sex abuse cases in 2007.[111]

As of March 2006, dioceses in which abuse was committed or in which abuse allegations were settled out of court had made financial settlements with the victims totaling over $1.5 billion.[101] The number and size of these settlements made it necessary for the dioceses to reduce their ordinary operating expenses by closing churches and schools in order to raise the funds to make these payments.[96] Several dioceses chose to declare Chapter 11 bankruptcy as a way to litigate settlements while protecting some church assets to ensure it continues to operate.

By 2009, U.S. dioceses have paid more than US$2.6 billion in abuse-related costs since 1950.[112][113]

In many instances, dioceses were forced to declare bankruptcy as a result of the settlements. At least six U.S. dioceses sought bankruptcy protection. In some cases, the dioceses filed bankruptcy just before civil suits against them were about to go to trial. This had the effect of mandating that pending and future lawsuits be settled in bankruptcy court. The sexual abuse scandal costs each of the 195 dioceses "an average of $300,000 annually."

------------------------
Abuse by Clergy Is Not Just a Catholic Problem
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/13/us...pagewanted=all

A civil lawsuit accuses Lutheran officials of ignoring past incidents involving the pastor, Gerald Patrick Thomas Jr., and says they bear responsibility for his actions, a claim the national church strongly rejects.




Child Sexual Abuse CASES : Churches
http://creatingsaferhavens.com/child...ted-cases.html

NV, Las Vegas - 1/22/2016*
Former pastor found guilty in Las Vegas child sex case
- Update of 1/3/2016 article
NV, Las Vegas - *1/3/2016
Pastor in sex ‘counseling’ goes on trial for child abuse
KY, Campton - 12/29/2015 Sexual abuse case against Powell County pastor sent to grand jury
England, Warwick - 12/29/2015 Jehovah's Witnesses accused of covering up historic sex abuse
KS, Overland Park - 12/29/2015 Kansas church hired known sex offender who then molested disabled churchgoer
PA, Philadelphia - 12/29/2015 Philly DA pledges to keep former church official in custody despite new trial order
TN, Brentwood - 12/1/2015*
Morgan & Morgan Files Lawsuit for Child Sexual Assault Against Fellowship Bible Church
TN, Brentwood - 12/1/2015
$37.5M sexual assault suit filed against Fellowship Bible Church
Ala, Clark County - 10/28/2015
Daughter of Alabama pastor witnessed him sexually abuse minor, court filing states
CA, Danville - 10/24/2015
Lawsuit Alleges School District, Church Didn't Take Proper Steps to Deter Molestation
South America, Colombia - 9/17/2015*
Catholic Church pedophile enjoys new life in Colombia
TX, Bedford - 9/11/2015*
Former Alabama pastor facing 29 sex abuse charges hired as minister in Texas church
PA, Pittsburgh - 9/8/2015
Jury Picks Begin in Pennsylvania Priest's Sex Tourism Case
Australia, Sydney - 7/27/2015
Jehovah's Witnesses Church Accused Of Hiding More Than 1,000 Child Sex Abuse Cases In Australia
CA, Costa Mesa - 6/30/2015
Sex-abuse prosecutor: Church volunteer 'handpicked these boys.' Defense: 'There's reasonable doubt'
TX, Ft. Worth - 6/25/2015 - Update
Geronimo Aguilar, former mega-church pastor, found guilty of all sex crimes
Vatican City - 6-15-2015
Vatican orders former Polish archbishop to stand trial for sex abuse
NC/Fayetteville - 6/10/2015
Former Fayetteville principal pleads guilty to sex crimes
Montana, Helena - 5/1/2015
Helena Diocese names perpetrators of sexual abuse; many at western Montana parishes
Oregon - 4/30/2015
Happy Valley Pastor Mike Sperou convicted of child sex abuse, sentenced to 20 years in prison
MD, Baltimore - 4/17/2015
Md. Church Youth Group Leader Charged With Possession, Distribution of Child Porn
CA, Corona - 3/10/2015
Bible Study Teacher Arrested on Multiple Charges of Child Molestation
CA, Santa Barbara - 3/8/2015
All Hell Breaks Loose in Sex Abuse Lawsuit
Carpinteria Church, Presbytery of Santa Barbara Accused of Protecting Offenders and Neglecting Victims for Many Years
W. VA, Princeton - 2/11/2015*
Former church youth volunteer indicted on 50 charges as more victims come forward
NY, Albion - 1/21/2015
Tearful Testimony at Trial of Alleged Pedophile Pastor
OR, Portland - 1/14/2015
Women wait 18 years to see Portland pastor face child sex-abuse prosecution
Poland - 1/13/2015
Polish priest sexually abused boys, sentenced to 7 years

Regards
DL

 

As I understand it, the Catholic religion believes that we are all born with original sin, I.e. as a result of (deplorable) sex. That's a hard sense of guilt to get over. Happily, there is a squadron of ordained celibate (I.e.sex-denying) priests provided by the church to provide guidance and solace to the sinful multitudes. The methods used by these guardians of truth and morality is to introduce their very young innocent parishioners into the various evils of sex, so they will know what to watch out for when they are older. I don't see what all the fuss is about with the 300+ priests in PA over a six decade period. All they were doing is providing valuable series x education to generations of the faithful........
Folks, you cant make this stuff up. As often as this happens there will always be calls for reform, pseudo contrition, followed by collective amnesia. Fundamentally changing the church is like getting the Nazi party to invite Jews for full membership.

 

Original sin has nothing to do with sex.

I would explain it to you but I have a feeling you don't care anyways.

 

Lots of Christian churches have this problem.. not so much the mainline churches, but small, closed groups.

http://thecommonroomblog.com/2014/05/facts-about-child-molesters-in-the-church.html


“According to a very reliable study of thousands of pedophiles done my Dr. Gene Abel, 93% of pedophiles described themselves as religious. Religious people go to church. My dad told me the 2 easiest places to get away with sexually abusing children are churches and Christians daycares.”


Also from the comments:
“If there is evidence that pedophiles, as defined by the medical definition of pedophilia, can successfully break their attraction to children for good, I am unaware of those studies. There are studies that evidence about 40% of pedophiles can successfully avoid offending again but only with constant treatment. The downside is that these studies only follow them for about 4 years. And the attraction still remains. They can learn how to identify and avoid high risk scenarios. The reality is that nobody knows of people who have successfully avoided offending again long-term. We certainly are made new creatures in Christ, but temptation is still a very real factor.”

And this:

 

I believe that pedophilia transcends religion.

Its a sickness in the individual not caused by religion but by their mental state.

The reasons why people are attracted to this are vast but as I'm not a psychologist I will let you look them up yourself.

Regardless, its been a problem since the earliest societies and I'm sure it existed before established religion did.

 

Absolutely NOT!

Being raped doesn't mean you have obligations to stop all other rapes...that's ridiculous!

The responsibility is entirely and only on the rapists and their protectors in their religions. THEY are the criminals...

Blame the victim ?...BALONEY!!!

 

I think so too, but a closed religious group is an ideal hunting ground.

 

Stop me if you’ve heard this before: A deeply religious man, beloved by his church/community, targets and grooms a young child for sexual abuse. The child tells an adult and they report it to the elders of the church. The church investigates the abuse and then sweeps it all under the rug.

The deeply religious man is never reported to the police, the victim is blamed for seducing the man, and the man goes on to molest many other children, leaving a trail of scarred families in his wake.


Your first reaction, naturally, is to assume that I’m talking about a Catholic priest because we all know the Church has a long and sordid history of covering for sexual predators. But, as the title of the article probably clued you in, this is far from a problem with just the Catholic Church.

Kathryn Joyce of The Nation published an article last week detailing the cycle of abuse and cover up in conservative Christian communities:

This burgeoning crisis of abuse has received far less attention than the well-documented scandal that rocked the Catholic Church. That’s in part because the evangelical and fundamentalist world, unlike the Catholic hierarchy, is diverse and fractious, composed of thousands of far-flung denominations, ministries, parachurch groups, and missions like ABWE.

Among Christian evangelicals, there is no central church authority to investigate, punish, or reform. Groups like ABWE answer only to themselves.

The scale of potential abuse is huge. Evangelical Protestants far outnumber Catholics in the United States, with more than 280,000 churches, religious schools, and affiliated organizations.

In 2007, the three leading insurance companies that provide coverage for the majority of Protestant institutions said they received an average of 260 reports per year of child sexual abuse at the hands of church leaders and members. By contrast, the Catholic Church was reporting 228 “credible accusations” per year.

continued

https://thedailybanter.com/issues/2017/06/30/suffer-the-children/