Was bathing on the rooftop under the King's window commonplace in King David's time?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by gorfias, Oct 15, 2019.

  1. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    The main things are the plain things and the plain things are the nsin things.

    Focusing on minor points keeps you from focusing on what really matters.

    What matters in this story? God chose David to be king of Israel. Even in his great and lofty position he was able to be tempted and fell in to greivious sin. He became an adulterer and a murderer. This the man after God's own heart. If he can fall who is safe?
     
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  2. gorfias

    gorfias Well-Known Member

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    The Old Testament outranks the Talmud but it too has some real cringe in it. It was composed over 1,000s of years. I would not dismiss the story of David and Bathsheba as a fairy tale. Much of it fits today's social politics (powerful man gets less powerful man killed so he can have the woman). Supposedly, the writers of the bible carefully passed an oral history down until written. Course, where I work, by the time I get 3rd hand knowledge, it goes from a request for a new firewall to becoming a request for a Chinese Pu Pu Platter.
    All true. I focus on the lesser issues because I suspect it says something about current sexual politics. Supposedly, men have it all and a bag of chips as the most powerful people are men and, in theory, they make a society that is for men. David did that for the men of his society? Tell that to Uriah the Hittite.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
  3. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    No, their first child died as a new born. Solomon was their second. They had several others.
     
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  4. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    King David and Bathsheba had four children, all boys. Their names were Shammua, Shobab, Nathan and Solomon. Their first son died as punishment for David's sin with Bathsheba.
     
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  5. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    The stories are thousands of years old but they were not written in their current form until about 1,330 years ago.
     
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  6. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    They actually had five (5) boys. The first one died as a baby. He was not named. Solomon was the second.

    The writers had fun with playing who Bathsheba's daddy was. And they also played games with the kids' birth order. That is what happens when there isn't a good proof reader and editor.

    In 2 Samuel 11:3 (ERV) = so David sent for his officers and asked them who she was. An officer answered, “That is Bathsheba, daughter of Eliam. She is the wife of Uriah the Hittite.”

    In 1 Chronicles 3:5 (ERV) =
    These are the children born to David in Jerusalem:
    There were four sons from Bathsheba,[a] the daughter of Ammiel. They were Shimea, Shobab, Nathan, and Solomon.

    Some commentators go off on a wild goose chase and claim that Shimea/Shammua, Shobab, Nathan,and the Solomon (Jedidah) is the correct birth order. The problem is that is in direct conflict with the fairy tale as written in 2 Samuel 12:15-25 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2samuel12:15-25&version=CEB;ERV;YLT;EXB;CSB That tale plainly says that David knocked up Bathsheba within a couple of weeks after she had given birth to her first child, who had died. Her second son was Solomon, not Shimea/Shummua.

    Biblical characters have more aliases than a gang of bank robbers. That is why the stories should not be taken as reality.
     
  7. jay runner

    jay runner Banned

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    How about a quote from the Talmud on that three years and a day thing.
     
  8. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    In Jewish tradition, a girl became considered a "woman" at age 12. (Look up bat mitzvah)
    However, normally a girl didn't get married that early. 14 year old girls could get married but that was considered young, and I think it would have been the sort of thing the Bible would have specifically mentioned, not the exact age but remarked that they were a young bride. Sometimes girls could be married as young as 11 or even 10, but that was unusual, even in ancient times. (It would be either because the family was very poor, or because a man had gotten their daughter pregnant, and they thought a marriage was preferable to having the man stoned)

    A more typical marriage age would have been 16, but young girls could also get married at 18 or 19, sometimes 22 if they had strong family connections and the father or mother didn't want to let them go.

    This is just personal opinion, but Bathsheba probably had to be at the very least 16, more likely between 17 and 26 years old. Her husband was a young man in the army and probably wasn't that old, I'm guessing he might have been somewhere around 27 to 33.

    I'd be highly reluctant to believe anything the Wyrd of Gawd says here. That member is very Anti-Bible and says all sorts of stuff to try to slander Christianity, taking things out of context.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
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  9. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You mean knocked her up the second time.
    We know that the first baby died, and David was full of so much grief and guilt that he didn't sleep with Bathsheba again for a long time after that.
    Plus (might be wrong here) Soloman might not have even been born until after the whole Absalom thing and David being driven into exhile. So this doesn't really tell us how old David was when he first saw Bathsheba.

    Personally I would guess he might have been 34 to 37 at the time.
     
  10. Moonglow

    Moonglow Well-Known Member

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    David was letting his little head make decisions for his big head....
     
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  11. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Roof top life was common to escape the heat through out the Middle East.


    What fascinates me about this Bible story is David got the Lord's forgiveness.
    Whereas Saul got extermination of his line when he pleaded with Samuel . . .
    just because he spared a few Amalekites and their food stuffs, animals, booty from destruction as Samuel said the Lord demanded.
    I mean like that was worse than bedding another man's wife,
    who was serving in the Lord's armed forces,
    who was given the honor to lead a suicidal attack so as to create a widow!

    Wow!

    The Lord obviously has favs.

    Wish I was one of them ;)



    What part do I have incorrect, Bible scholars. :)
     
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  12. gorfias

    gorfias Well-Known Member

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    I did not know that! Thanks! Odd. Maybe has something to do with the perception that girls mature earlier than boys.
    "Time:Boys (bar mitzvah): 13 years old, Girls (bat mitzvah): 12 (Orthodox and Conservative), 13 (Reform)"
    Lot of stuff to take in like Abraham commanded to kill Issac. I think it was Woody Allen that did a short play about the book of Job. Job is told that he had suffered because G-d had a bet with Lucifer. Job replies something to the effect that, "Oh. I thought it was for reasons beyond my understanding. It was actually for reasons less than I can understand."
    I don't whole handed dismiss the historical aspects of the Bible. I just have to wonder what is true and what its writers were really trying to say.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
  13. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is a lot more to Job than any Bible anointed scholars
    wish you to consider.



    If YOU wish to get serious about Job
    Study Up
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Answer_to_Job
    I have read it, have you.

    Worth the read before any dialog.
    It isn't a book. It's an essay! Good for dyslexics like Moi.
    My conclusion on what Jung demonstrates later.
    If any Boardies are worthy.


    Moi :oldman:




    Is It True :flagcanada:s
    Have No Soul?
     
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  14. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    All of the biblical stories illustrate one or more of the Ten Commandments found in Exodus 34:11-28. The miracles are based on Exodus 34:10. The stories are meant to be like quizzes, so that when a person hears, or reads the story, he is supposed to link it to one or more of the Ten Commandments. Most of the stories can be easily linked but some are more complex and involve several of the Ten Commandments. If you don't know what the real Ten Commandments are you will never be able to see the connection. That is why the story of the Ten Commandments is explained in such a liner format. None of the other stories are written that way.

    BTW, Abraham is one of the most despicable people in the Bible. He was a real scumbag.

    Job is the classic everyman who suffers countless disasters but does not fall apart. He holds true to his values and works to rebuild his life. You see real examples of that everyday in the modern world and maybe you, or someone close to you, have done it just as Job did. There is no God or Lucifer involved. It is just the person and his willingness to endure. Job is actually the most decent person in the entire Bible.
     
  15. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Yep! You could bathe on the roof but only if you were older than 80
     
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  16. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    This should get you started. Be sure to read each reference so that you can understand the issue. I didn't include the sections about boys.

    You can read it for yourself =
    1. http://www.come-and-hear.com/kethuboth/kethuboth_11.html
    2. http://www.come-and-hear.com/niddah/niddah_45.html
    3. http://www.come-and-hear.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_69.html

    4. http://www.come-and-hear.com/niddah/niddah_44.html (be sure to read part B = An objection was raised: A girl of the age of three years and even one of the age of two years and one day may be betrothed by intercourse; so R. Meir. But the Sages say: Only one who is three years and one day old.)
    5. http://www.come-and-hear.com/yebamoth/yebamoth_57.html (be sure to read part B)
    6. http://www.come-and-hear.com/kethuboth/kethuboth_29.html

    7. http://www.come-and-hear.com/zarah/zarah_37.html
    8. http://www.come-and-hear.com/kethuboth/kethuboth_9.html
    9. http://www.come-and-hear.com/kethuboth/kethuboth_40.html (read part B for the two pubic hair rule)

    "What We Have Learned Thus Far
    In Sex with Children by Talmud Rules, (34) we learned that under Talmud law, grown men may have sexual intercourse with children. Sex with girls younger than three years old is specifically permitted. We learned that the little girls are wounded and bleed as a result. Little girls may bleed after each copulation. The Sages teach that the repeated bleeding is the result of the hymen growing back and being newly ruptured with each copulation. We learned that Jewish law permits male homosexuality if the passive partner is younger than nine years old, and that homosexuality between adult men is punishable by death. We wondered how these laws could be integrated into the present system of American law and custom."
    http://www.come-and-hear.com/editor/america_6.html
     
  17. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    The Maccabee books contain some history but most of the other books are just fiction. https://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Common-English-Bible-CEB/#booklist
     
  18. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    It's so easy to debunk your claims. See, for instance, footnote 29* - "Lit., 'These maidens to whom there is a fine'. — The fine is that for seducing a girl; v. Deut. XXII, 29. So no, seducing a girl wasn't permitted. There's more about this in the text, for those who are willing to read for themselves.

    The chapter is about dowries and compensations for former slaves and converts who were minors at the time of the conversion. The discussion is more about validity of conversion at an early age (hence "3 years old") than virginity though.

    *
    Yes, footnotes are paramount, as are Tosafot and Rambam's Mishneh Torah, to understand the Talmud.
     
  19. jay runner

    jay runner Banned

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    Thank you very much.

    My take on this is that the rabbinical scholastics who wrote this were crazier than loons.
     
  20. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    Just as usual, some folks will deny what is plainly apparent to others. I think that there is only one passage that discusses a fine. Those passages clearly say that it is OK for grown men to rape three year-old girls. It might be too much for you to read the passages but they all express that same idea. I'm sure that other posters will agree with my statement. And never forget, the biblical characters, like Moses, were into baby raping big time. Be sure to explain how a grown man can seduce a three year-old girl. How do you explain the passages about grown women having sex with little boys?
     
  21. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    As you may recall, there are biblical passages that say the conquerors can keep the young girls who have not had sex, such as in Numbers 31:18 (KJV) = "But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." When you think about that passage, it seems that the non-Israelites were less likely to engage in baby raping than the Israelites were.

    The Talmud has a lot of stuff that can be considered crazy. Some parts are really disgusting.

    If the Bible was written in the same literary style as the Talmud no one would read it.
     
  22. gorfias

    gorfias Well-Known Member

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    From your link, "But then God allows Satan to work on him, bringing misfortune and misery." Why? This is my understanding: "The book of Job begins with a prologue (Job 1-2), which describes a wager between Satan and God, in which Satan (“the adversary”) bets God that Job–a particularly pious man–will abandon his piety and curse God if all his wealth and well-being are taken away."
    https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-book-of-job/
    I do not recall which movie it was but Peter Weller's character states that Satan got it wrong and that he could have won the wager. Satan takes all away from Job yet Job will not curse G-d and die. He argues Job will not as he has nothing left but G-d. But had Satan given all worldly goods to Job, Job would have become arrogant and turned on him, "in a New York minute". Dunno, Job had a lot and did not turn on G-d.
    I understand that it was an attempt to simply illustrate that bad things do happen to good people.
     
  23. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    The book of Job is a long story that illustrates the benefits of obeying the First Commandment (Exodus 34:11-16). It stands in contrast to some of the other stories where the characters abandoned God and went their own way with other deities. Remember, all of the stories show the benefits for following the Ten Commandments or the consequences of ignoring them. Most of the biblical stories are about the First Commandment.
     
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  24. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    It's very difficult to answer your question. One might say that Judaism is unfinished. with many questions and new points of view arising just when one thought to have clarified them all . Different rabbis will give you different answers to the same question.

    The Talmud teaches that "Everything is foreseen, yet freedom is given to choose." One possible interpretation is that God already decided what the end result will be, but humans choose the path to follow. In other words, "we can make moral choices within G‑d’s story".

    https://www.aish.com/atr/Free_Will_vs_Predestination.html

    According to this point of view, Batsheba may have been destined to David since creation, but David's sins were not predetermined.

    The Kabbalah, on the other hand, tells us that "When man accomplishes G‑d's will below, he causes a parallel rectification above." (Zohar), which is interpreted to mean that our actions have consequences not only in the material world, but in God's realm as well.
    https://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/380295/jewish/The-Power-of-Our-Freewill.htm
     
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  25. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    Please quote the exact words from the passages that allegedly say it is OK for grown men to rape three year old girls.

    Jews - both men and women - are forbidden from having sexual relations outside marriage. That includes rape of three year old girls.

    Acknowledging the theoretical possibility of an act does not imply condoning that act. Otherwise any law that mentions pedophilia would be interpreted by legal scholars as actually condoning rape of children. Are modern laws condoning murder, rape, theft, or pedophilia?
     

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