Wasting money on Education!

Discussion in 'Education' started by Anders Hoveland, Mar 18, 2012.

  1. lemur

    lemur New Member

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    First, education pays: http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm However, people need to be smarter about what they choose to study and what they are willing to pay for it, especially in light of ever changing markets. High schools need better programs to help young people make better career decisions.

    Second, yes, credentialism is a problem, but credentialism has been promoted by business. It was created by the market and often adopted by state governments to support the desires of the market - or the desires of human resources departments. Still, my experience with grad school, in particular, was that I was paying the university to read my papers and score my exams simply to provide me the opportunity to demonstrate that I can read, think, and write. Grad school was a rip-off. No doubt. But it was my only route to a credential and licensure. I would much rather be given a stack of books and then have the opportunity to pay maybe $200 to take one comprehensive exam to earn my license. I didn't really need a degree from a university.

    Third, an "over-educated" society is a matter of perspective. The U.S. is not exactly over-educated, but we also rely on so-called illegals to fill the positions our under-educated are too lazy or too "proud" to tackle. There was a day when public schools purposely divided college-bound and laborers. This made sure we had sufficient laborers. It also turned out to be largely racist. College-bound were mostly white while other programs were mostly minority. Now we have NCLB, intended to close that achievement gap.

    Lastly, we need good civic education. People are not being taught to think critically. Our democracy is at risk. Literacy is important. In a thinking society elections would not be determined by money. Citizens United would not be a threat. But it is. We need quality education, and arguing that education is a waste of money won't help.
     
  2. lemur

    lemur New Member

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    double post
     
  3. septimine

    septimine New Member

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    Well, I see the point, when a credential is required for a job, absolutely get the credential. I have no trouble with that. If you need a liscence to practice in your field, sure. But so many of our degrees would honestly be unneeded if people would simply study for themselves. You don't need college to cook a dinner, or to program a computer, or things like that.

    As far as over education, it's a question of what that education does to you. If you have no "college level" skills, then all you end up with a big head that makes you unwilling to do manual labor. I think it's more a question of over education -- everyone thinks their kids belong in college and no one who thinks their kids belong in college is going to be happy when their kid comes home wanting to do "dirty" manual labor. It's not education, it's ego.
     
  4. Clint Torres

    Clint Torres New Member

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    I agree with the above.

    Most people don't need a colege degree to make a 6 figure income. There are a lot of state government jobs that pay way more than a degree credential job. Fact is university marketing and sales is what drives people to go into debt to get a degree that they don't need or can't make any money off.

    That is what happend to the irish PhD student who just went on a rampage. He realized, that no matter how much he kissed ass, and was privilaged, he could not compete with the other students from all over the world. He needed to make it to grad school to find out he was just a privilaged irish kid who had no real skills or expreience to get any type of work.

    He is an example of the privilaged spoiled college jerk off who lacks the ability and skills to function as an adult in the real world of economic labor and capitialism. Same can be said for most of the employees of the USA public education system. THey have been coddled and spoiled all their lives with no real understanding of the real world and what it takes to make it in the labor force of the USA.

    So no matter how much money the tax payers fork over to the USA publc education welfare system, those educators will continue to fail at epeic levels. The USA spends more on public education than the rest of the world, and has one of the worst educaton systems and records. The only thing the USA public education system has over the rest of the world is great working conditions for educators and great benifits for retirement. And that is what the US taxpayer pays for. Not for teaching kids, but for making incompetent aduts of the public schools welfare system weathy and happy for generations to come.
     
  5. lemur

    lemur New Member

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    It's a bit of an overstatement to say that teachers in the U.S. have "great working conditions" and that they are getting "wealthy." Benefits and retirement are getting worse, as well. In Colorado, for example, those who started teaching in the 20th century have pretty good retirement benefits, much like the types of benefits U.S. corporations used to offer folks at the beginning of the boomer bubble. Young teachers, however, can expect worse retirement with the need to teach later in life before being able to collect. Every year insurance goes up and teachers pay a higher percentage out of their paychecks, and the insurance keeps getting worse - larger co-pays - larger out of pocket percentages. If by wealthy you mean finally making $50K per year after more than 20 years in the profession (that was my experience), and topping out at $60K even with advanced degrees (on average teachers with masters or doctorates can expect to get paid less than any other masters or Ph.D. profession). And if you think the working conditions are great, try working in a typical public school. Where did you go to school?
     
  6. Anders Hoveland

    Anders Hoveland Banned

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    This is true. For all the emphasis on "equality" in the education system, the universities and public schools have their own power and salary hierarchies. And there is particular distinction now for university professors based on seniority. The ones that got there many years ago get generous pay, generous retirement and benefits. The newer ones get screwed, and most of them will never be promoted to status as a "full time professor", even though many are working more hours than the full time professors.
     
  7. Clint Torres

    Clint Torres New Member

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    What you say young teaches are going though is what everyone in the USA goes through. The college degree program of the USA has become a joke. Anyone with connectins and money can get one. When you look at what real hours a public shcool teacher in the US works and how many days, it is also a joke. 24/7 for a teacher is 24 real work hours a month and 7 months a year. And for $50K that's not bad. The public school has hyped up the temr professional, but in reality they are no more a group of hoared cattle of a union movement.
     
  8. Anders Hoveland

    Anders Hoveland Banned

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    Here is a good article that appeared in Newsweek titled: "Is college a Lousy investment?" It deals with much of what is discussed this thread.
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/newswe...n-the-coming-burst-of-the-college-bubble.html

     
  9. FFbat

    FFbat New Member

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    While there is a large waste in the Education departments, Most of the cause for the state of the declining primary education is because of the population rate.

    Secondly, you seem to have a very narrow view of a person's potential. A person is only as useful as they are to a specific field. How depressing. Encouraging understanding of all fields on some basic level, allows an individual the opportunity to seek out a life that fulfills them. And people who find a path like that tend to succeed in their fields.

    And third, Education is never considered a waste. Education is a matter of National security. Without a well educated posterity, Other countries will one day supplant the US as the dominant power in the world. Something that China, is even now, trying to claw at. And they've had the momentum to do it. They spend tons on education.

    Our education system is broken, but it can't be scrapped, it has to be fixed.
     
  10. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    The militaries do it better they love when soldiers have degrees but also want them to have needed and useful skills so have clear and well designed training in many fields and areas. Usually a degree adds to that say your an engineer enlisted and gained a few specialties in that you might then get a degree in construction management or civil engineering to add to those skills which leads usually to promotions faster if your a good asset.

    Civilian education is not that practical by a long shot.
     
  11. Anders Hoveland

    Anders Hoveland Banned

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    Not enough jobs for all those new graduates in China and India who got degrees

    I think it is becoming more and more evident that pushing everyone in a society to get university degrees is not beneficial, and may even be counterproductive. It is a serious dilemma facing a young person now, whether to go to university or not. It is sort of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.
     
  12. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Donor

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  13. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    Excuse me but Technical High Schools were a thing and my father and mother attended them and many other relatives and all entered the workforce in skilled work blue collar, white collar and farming well skilled they just did this. Focused on employment skills and save for a quarter of the classes being general education focused on employment seeing each student left with workforce skills. In modern terms if you need ,say, 28 credits of work to earn a diploma 21 credits would be training to work or related skills and the rest things such as English and other general topics. They figured by High School unless you were going to college and attended an Academic High School you knew the basics of education enough so there wasn't a need for more American History for example or science unless applied to a trade.

    Why we stopped this tested method of preparing young people is crazy to me and I will note its fair to the poor since this education is largely at little cost being publically funded so no debt to learn to be an automotive tech or a machinists helper or a cook or in modern terms a software coder.
     
  14. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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    “Doing nothing”?
    “A lot of money”?
    “No accountability”?

    Your preconceived notions are unrelated to the reality of being an educator.
     
  15. Moonglow

    Moonglow Well-Known Member

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    While going to high school I learned to be a mason and by the age of twenty two I was earning ten dollars an hour when min. wage was three fifty. Ten years later I was earning sixty thousand a year, that was in the nineteen nineties. I retired in two thousand twelve earning seventy five an hour and still do part time work when I want some dough, but I never stopped going to college and I never stopped being educated.
     
  16. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    This would be to me an ideal model of education for common students:

    Grades K-8 General subjects they should be capable in literacy, mathematics, civics and history of the nation, topics of science and exposed to the arts and physical education and general world history and be well rounded.

    High School - Two Tracks for the majority Technical Education for employment out of High School and no wasting time on subjects covered above there is no need if it was done properly but I would require one foreign language studied for four years tied to literacy. Other Track for the students whose IQ's and interests warrant Academics they should be given intensive academic preparation and be ready for a rigorous college education not wasting time on subjects outside that.

    We have models for other options the New York School of the Arts (FAME movies and TV series) for those interested and need special educations in performing arts, music and special schools for the creative arts are a good idea.

    The Disabled will need special consideration if some are never going to be employed adults then we might need to do what can be done.

    But my view tracking students into a useful education path is key some should go to college but most would be best suited to learn trades of all sorts we could offer or for gifted artists art education.

    And the government should support adult education the same High School teaching teens should have night classes for adult learners so as to not waste the facilities or space.
     

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