Well, Social Security has warned us

Discussion in 'Social Security' started by Robert, Aug 8, 2016.

  1. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What are your plans? George Bush came up with an excellent plan. Democrats killed the plan.

    Today you have zero control over your fate. Bush plan put you in charge. You had 6 areas to select from. And your ability to help your survivors was in your hands.

    Social Security faces a 32 trillion dollar shortfall. Make no mistake, Democrats have no plan to save you.

    https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/social-security-faces-32-trillion-120429828.html

     
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  2. Tommy Palven

    Tommy Palven Active Member Past Donor

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  3. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Ok, now say something that is true.
     
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  4. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I did, It is now your turn.
     
  5. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    No you didn't. In the first place, Democrats have called for raising or eliminating the FICA taxable income ceiling. That's a plan. It has bee suggested. It is still being pushed.

    Secondly...
    Another fact of the infinite horizon projection is that it assumes nothing on the input side changes: unemployment stays the same, employment stays the same, revenue income stays the same, interest rates on the Trust Fund securities stay the same. But the demand due to changing population changes.


    But S.S. is not going to go broke.

    The S.S. Trust Fund has Treasury securities (Treasury bills) in it valued at about $2.8 trillion. Those T-bills were bought and fully paid for with FICA funds every month. If you have T-bills in your investment fund or 401k or desk drawer, they have actual value too. What did the government do with the money when you bought those T-bills? Who knows. No matter, they have value and you can redeem them. Same with S.S.

    "In the annual Trustees Report, projections are made under three alternative sets of economic and demographic assumptions. Under one of these sets (labeled "Low Cost") the trust funds remain solvent for the next 75 years. Under the other two sets (the "Intermediate" and "High Cost"), the trust funds become depleted within the next 20 years. The intermediate assumptions reflect the Trustees' best estimate of future experience.

    "Some benefits could be paid even if the trust funds are depleted. For example, under the intermediate assumptions, annual income to the trust funds is projected to equal about seventy-nine percent of program cost once the trust funds become depleted. If no legislation has been enacted to restore long-term solvency by that time, about three-quarters of scheduled benefits could be paid in each year."

    https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/ProgData/fundFAQ.html

    Social Security will not "go broke" in the foreseeable future unless unemployment goes to 100%.

    Any other questions?
     
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  6. Sharpie

    Sharpie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Social Security has already started screwing recipients. Retirement age has begun creeping upwards from 65. The benefit calculation has changed to penalize people who have not contributed enough - which is new. Rather than totaling lifetime contributions and applying a formula to arrive at the benefit amount, it has now switched to a formula based on "years" rather than contributions. So people who worked seasonal or temporary jobs through high school and college will not have that contribution counted because it doesn't meet threshold. Women who had to suspend work to have babies (used to be daycares only accepted toilet trained kids), women who suspended work to follow their husbands' transfers to new cities, people who were out of work for a very long time due to the '08 Depression -- all these are examples which under the new formula are subject to claw-backs of up to 60% on earned benefits. That percentage rate can reflect a penalty for working overseas, or any other situation where payments into the system were suspended. There were never penalties for not paying into the system -- that's a new thing from leftist governance.

    Social security was never meant to be the retirement plan - only the safety net. Now that retiring seniors who suffered lack of work due to age-discrimination, who dipped into their other retirement accounts and paid tax penalties just to keep their heads above water, as they look towards much needed social security - they find out they can't receive the fully earned amount but only a percentage of it.

    Measure up a 60 year old law-abiding citizen who has worked all their life, if you will, vs an illegal alien - who should get the money the 60 year old generated through their labor?
     
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  7. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Very nice, but irrelevant. The S.S. system is what it is. Yes it has undergone changes. It has been necessary due to republicans refusing to actually keep it as effective as it was. But all your thoughts are about the past and not what is and what's to come. The O.P. said "Social Security faces a 32 trillion dollar shortfall. Make no mistake, Democrats have no plan to save you."

    Of course the "no plans to save you" is mere biased opinion based on hope, but it is untrue. And the $32 trillion shortfall indicated in the article is 75 years out!! Does anyone actually think no plan can be developed to resolve this? Well, it already has, contrary to the O.P. The plan offered is to eliminate the income cap. That alone would do the job. Other alternative details have been offered but those are not important to this conversation just now.
     
  8. Sharpie

    Sharpie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "Is what it is" due to republicans is such complete baloney. Adequate funding of social security is stressed and diminished by the growing size of other social safety nets which compete for budget allocations. While necessary, are not being capably and intelligently managed in a predominately democratic/socialist government environment and the result is a demand for increased budget.

    Improper welfare payments, including fraud, are estimated to be 10.1% of all federal welfare payments made; and totaled $71.5 billion in fiscal year 2015. That's $71 billion that could have gone to social security, but was instead tossed up and away through a culture of spending-out and asking for more.

    A CBPP analysis using Census’ Supplemental Poverty Measure shows that government safety net programs kept some 38 million people out of poverty in calendar year 2014. Without any government income assistance, either from safety net programs or other income supports like Social Security, the poverty rate would have been 27.3 percent in 2014, nearly double the actual 15.3 percent.

    Everything is interconnected, and robbing from Peter to Pay Paul is a government scheme that has gone on for a very long time. (Republicans and Democrats alike) Clawing back 60% of earned and contributed social security payments is completely unacceptable. According to Kiplinger, we should all look forward to increased taxes on our social security as well.

    Democrats fail to address why the poverty rate is so high, or the real cost of open borders. But they have no problem perceiving all seniors as rich old white geezers who should be passed over for employment and be bled of their wealth.
     
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  9. Deckel

    Deckel Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I won't live to 2090, so works for me.
     
  10. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    This sounds like you are trying to put the best face on the fact (which you don't disagree with) that the Trust fund will be depleted around 2034, at which point Social Security will only be able to pay 70 plus percent of benefits. You may not think of that as going broke but I do, since that means millions of social security recipients will have their checks cut by about a quarter.
     
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  11. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Welfare is a separate system. Welfare fraud has no bearing on S.S.

    S.S. has been fully paid for. That's how the Treasury securities got into the Trust Fund. In the annual Trustees Report, projections are made under three alternative sets of economic and demographic assumptions. Under the "Low Cost" assumption set, the trust funds remain solvent for the next 75 years. Under the other two sets (the "Intermediate" and "High Cost"), the trust funds become depleted within the next 20 years. Social Security has never cost one penny beyond what workers paid in via FICA taxes and they have paid fully for S.S. benefits and will for at least 20 more years even if nothing is done to improve the situation. And even then 70% of scheduled benefits can be paid without costing the government (taxpayers) another penny. So all those numbers you posted and worries about what "could have gone to Social Security" are irrelevant and a diversion at best.


    Good! Then these programs are doing an important job.


    I don't know to what you refer. The law is very tight around Social Security and its Trust Fund management.


    That sounds like muddled confusion. Can you elaborate and communicate it?
     
  12. BleedingHeadKen

    BleedingHeadKen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It's neither a trust nor a fund. It's just IOUs in which future taxpayers will have to pay for the profligate spending of government on behalf of current taxpayers. Future taxpayers will have to pay double. They have to pay for the higher taxes you demand from them because you spent now what should have been saved for then, and they'll have to pay for their own "safety net" (which is another abuse of language when there's no cap on the tax rate.)
     
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  13. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Ok so you know zero about this. Even if S.S. and its Trust Fund didn't exist, the government would have still spent the money they spent by selling Treasury securities on the open market.
    Go play with those who can relate to you.
     
  14. BleedingHeadKen

    BleedingHeadKen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    They don't sell GAS (Government Account Series) Treasuries on the open market.
     
  15. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Right. What's your point?
     
  16. AlNewman

    AlNewman Well-Known Member

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    What value? They stole the funds (well almost funds) and left an IOU even more worthless than those Federal Reserve Notes they stole.

    By the way Einstein, where does the Treasury get the funds to pay those bills?
     
  17. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    You really should do some honest investigation and learn a bit before post such nonsense. The S.S. Trust Fund ("TF") holds $2.8 trillion worth of special Treasury securities which are basically the same structure as T-bills. Their value is as they each state. There was no "stealing". I can tell you've been believing right wing lying websites because that is where such drivel is found.

    Your lack of knowledge of what you speak is revealed in your choice of words. "Where does the Treasury get the funds to pay those bills?"??? Do you mean "how does the Treasury redeem the TF Treasury securities"? That must be what you mean. The government sells T-bills on the open market in the amount of the required redemption. The proceeds are transferred to the TF and a matching value of TF Treasuries are retired. This transfers the debt (credit actually) from the TF to the public where it belongs. Most of those T-bills are actually sold on international markets. This transfer leaves the debt unchanged.

    So you see, the SS TF value of $2.8 trillion is real and it is invested safely. And it is all fully paid for. The government sells the Treasuries that the SS TF buys, of course. And the proceeds of sale go into the general fund from where it is spent on who-knows-what. But there are no "IOUs" (that is a right wing lie that you fell for) and there is value just as real as the T-bills in your pension and as are bought by people with lots of money who look for a safe, reliable investment.

    You might want to stop reading those right wing lying websites.
     
  18. AlNewman

    AlNewman Well-Known Member

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    Well Einstein, I would first suggest that you learn some language because words have meanings that allow intelligent conversation otherwise, there is nothing but liberal gibberish that has no definitive meaning.

    $2.8 trillion of "SPECIAL" Treasury securities with the same structure as T-bills, really the only intelligent comment made in your whole delusional tirade. The Treasury which has no money, dictates a tax for a ponzi scheme stolen from the good little citizens based on a presumption of a "last resort" debt based pension. Then the Treasury "borrows" those funds for the general fund which is totally broke to the tune of $20 trillion and leaves an IOU to repay. So all of this debt is at the expense of your grandchildren and great grandchildren, so that should make you a proud little parent selling your prosperity into slavery. Congratulations Einstein!!!


    No, I meant exactly what I asked so you have absolutely no clue, just what I thought. You probably think money is currency also, totally delusional. I doubt you understand in the least the mechanisms of a debt based economy nor why the boom bust paradox is the effect.

    So if I where to come to your house and take all the debt instruments, the ones you call money, out of the cookie jar and leave you an IOU that I deem a security because I have no way of making my own debt based instruments, you'd be ok with that?

    You might want to actually gain knowledge by education instead of just listening to what you want to be true, no matter the source.
     
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  19. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    republicans trying to kill Social Security again, no surprise there

    raise the caps on the rich to help cover the baby boomers and stop borrowing from it
     
  20. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    "Einstein"? That's twice. Shall I call you "Dolt"? Or maybe "Genius"?



    That's another insult. If this keeps up I'll consider putting you on "ignore". I have presented facts all along, though they are apparently facts you don't like very much. Hidden agenda does that usually.


    That's a nonsensical but popular right wing spin that is adopted by people whose matching agenda is more important to them than common sense.


    Backward. The Treasury LENDS good funds to the general fund as an investment and the proceeds from the investment of those good funds go into the general fund where they are either spent on things you approve of or not. That is not any fault of SS.


    That is not the fault of SS! SS has been paid for, fully. The money was spent by your government. What was it spent on?
    If I invest $10,000 in corporate bonds and the corporation spends it on something I disapprove of and goes into debt and my value is repaid at 50ยข on the dollar while the stock doubles, is that outcome my fault? Or is the corporation responsible for the outcome?


    Your constant insults to cover your inability to make a sound argument are getting very tiresome.


    You must be fresh out of any real argument because you are changing the subject and throwing in insults more. Your question of "Where does the Treasury get the funds to pay those bills?" is exactly what I answered. i guess you aren't able to comprehend the answer. Try reading it again. Maybe you'll have a break-through.


    Yup, you're fresh out of sensible replies.


    That is another defense for knowing nothing of the subject. Congrats.
     
  21. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    first of all, the baby boomers wont live forever this is a temporary rise, raise the caps on the rich, 99% of America pays the SS tax for every dollar they earn, the rich can too
     
  22. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    The rise isn't temporary. the 30% shortfall goes on for several decades.

    I've yet to see the figures on how much raising the caps will raise revenue to the point that it saves the program, but I suspect that will be a large part of the solution.
     
  23. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    AlNewman, et al, I'll tell you what... this may cut to the chase and answer lots of questions and doubts...

    I will make one statement to be discussed. I expect it will generate plenty of discussion, doubt, disbelief, and even outrage. Just be sure to read it very carefully because I will be using exact wording. In fact I will underline key, important words. Here is the statement:

    ADDING VALUE TO AND ACCUMULATING VALUE IN THE T.F. (Trust Fund) HAS NO IMPACT ON THE NATIONAL DEBT, AND REDEEMING TREASURIES FROM THE T.F. TO PAY CURRENT OBLIGATIONS HAS NO IMPACT ON THE NATIONAL DEBT.

    I think this will clear up lots of misconceptions. Let's do it!
     
  24. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    it's temporary, as the baby boomers will eventually fall off SS, they were able to start from scratch in the past and support it, I think our generation can do the same for our elderly id needed
     
  25. slackercruster

    slackercruster Banned

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    My plan?

    Hope...hope that the gov starts their universal allowance for Americans. If not, I have a good tent already.
     

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