What are your views on abortion?

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by Daggdag, Oct 19, 2020.

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Which best describes your view on abortion

  1. A woman has the right to choose to get an abortion with no limitations.

    28 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. Abortion should be illegal after the first trimester

    8 vote(s)
    14.3%
  3. Abortion should be illegal except to preserve the health and life of the mother.

    17 vote(s)
    30.4%
  4. Abortion should be illegal in all circumstances.

    3 vote(s)
    5.4%
  1. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Oh come now, you don't actually believe this?
     
  2. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    He doesn't believe it can be both unborn and "a child".

    But we are just talking pure semantic arguments here.
     
  3. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    In your opinion, when do you think views should be forced on other people?

    Are you able to answer that question without referring to "being born" ?
     
  4. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'm sorry, that is a very extremist position, in my personal opinion.

    Almost like an Orwellian redefinition of a word.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
  5. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What happened to the doctor's choice?
    What if that doctor is not trained to perform abortion? Do you want all doctors to be trained to perform abortions?
    Sounds like you did not really think this through.
    Are you saying that any doctor who performs abortions would have to perform one to save the life of a woman? That sounds very redundant.
    Or that abortion doctors who only do early abortions would be forced to do late-term abortions?
    What exactly were you trying to say?

    How about an abortion doctor who only occasionally does late-term abortions, only if he thinks the woman's life is really in danger. Would you force him to violate his conscience and abort for very debatable "health" reasons?
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
  6. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Your argument is that we should be able to do what we want! THAT is an awful 7th-grader-argument which I am not even sure deserves to be addressed, but I have addressed it anyway!

    So rights come from "the law of identity?"
     
  7. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Okay, but why does the law not allow me to do that?

    You said that "an embryo and a fetus are completely dependent on the life, health and diet of the woman carrying it." I agreed. Then you said I was wrong. Why?

    If you can answer for people, then why I can't answer for you about what your favourite things are?
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
  8. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "an embryo and a fetus are completely dependent on the life, health and diet of the woman carrying it."

    Isn't it true that a prisoner is also completely dependent? Yet they still have certain rights...
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
  9. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Sure, but the starting point is always determining that there is no value to the life.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
  10. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    No, no, no, no, no. Leave her alone to live her life. Very easy.
     
  11. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean? It's a fact.
     
  12. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    Words are very important because they refer to actual concepts. If someone uses a word in the wrong way, they do not only make conversation more difficult, but also do they distort reality as a whole.

    "Unborn child" is a very bad concept. I have already explained why this is in so many posts that I am not doing it again.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
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  13. cd8ed

    cd8ed Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It isn’t that there is or isn’t value to the fetus or embryo, the issue is if we want women to have bodily integrity or if we want them to be slaves to the state.
     
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  14. cd8ed

    cd8ed Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is fact
    Can you take out life insurance on a fetus?
    Can fetus’s get federal assistance?
    Can pregnant women claim a dependent?
     
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  15. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    If cancer treatment was banned, would people be "slaves to the state?"
     
  16. cd8ed

    cd8ed Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your analogy makes no sense in this context but it would absolutely remove choice which is one of the main issues here. That would definitely be authoritarian however.

    You are making some interesting parallels. Do you think it would be wrong for the government to deny medical treatment for something that can cause life long bodily damage, psychological trauma, crippling medical debt, or even death?
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
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  17. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    It would remove choice, but would people be "slaves to the state?"

    Wow. What happened to "your analogy makes no sense in this context?"

    Absolutely!
     
  18. cd8ed

    cd8ed Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    In a way yes, they have arbitrarily removed choice under threat if action by the state.


    Cancer has no other eventual outcome besides death. Pregnancy has many potential outcomes.

    So you are pro-choice then?
     
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  19. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    What about if women aren't prosecuted for having an abortion if it was banned?

    The comparison is not cancer and pregnancy, it's cancer and abortion.

    Oh I see what you've done there! Very sneaky! Alright, I will indulge you:

    1. "Life long bodily damage." - What kind is caused by pregnancy?
    2. "Psychological trauma." - You mean like pre-natal depression? So then what about POST-natal depression?
    3. "Crippling medical debt." - Due to medical problems with the kid during their life?
    Why do you say that?
     
  20. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    FoxHastings said:
    Who are you to tell a woman what she does or doesn't need?




    LOL OH THOSE UPPITY WOMEN ! With their fancy ideas that they have rights.!!!!..

    Too bad for you women are in that high and mighty position of deciding if the fetus lives or not...MORE POWER THAN YOU HAVE ...hurts your butt really bad , doesn't it...YOU can't control women …:) :) :)


    WTF is THAT suppose to mean ?? Uh, how can a woman pull an abortion on someone else.....I think your misogyny is rattling to you....
     
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  21. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    My gawd, you sure must hate women! You , as I have said, sure want to punish them...the object of most Anti-Choicers...
     
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  22. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

    • exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
    • altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
    • nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
    • heartburn and indigestion
    • constipation
    • weight gain
    • dizziness and light-headedness
    • bloating, swelling, fluid retention
    • hemmorhoids
    • abdominal cramps
    • yeast infections
    • congested, bloody nose
    • acne and mild skin disorders
    • skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
    • mild to severe backache and strain
    • increased headaches
    • difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
    • increased urination and incontinence
    • bleeding gums
    • pica
    • breast pain and discharge
    • swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint paininfection including from serious and potentially fatal disease
      (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
    • extreme pain on delivery
    • hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
    • continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major surgery -- is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)
    Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

    • stretch marks (worse in younger women)
    • loose skin
    • permanent weight gain or redistribution
    • abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
    • pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life -- aka prolapsed utuerus, the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)
    • changes to breasts
    • increased foot size
    • varicose veins
    • scarring from episiotomy or c-section
    • other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
    • increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
    • loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)
    • higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer's
    • newer research indicates microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and mother (including with "unrelated" gestational surrogates)
    Occasional complications and side effects:

    • complications of episiotomy
    • spousal/partner abuse
    • hyperemesis gravidarum
    • temporary and permanent injury to back
    • severe scarring requiring later surgery
      (especially after additional pregnancies)
    • dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses -- 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
    • pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies)
    • eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
    • gestational diabetes
    • placenta previa
    • anemia (which can be life-threatening)
    • thrombocytopenic purpura
    • severe cramping
    • embolism (blood clots)
    • medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
    • diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
    • mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
    • serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
    • hormonal imbalance
    • ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
    • broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone")
    • hemorrhage and
    • numerous other complications of delivery
    • refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
    • aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
    • severe post-partum depression and psychosis
    • research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors
    • research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
    • research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease
    Less common (but serious) complications:

    • peripartum cardiomyopathy
    • cardiopulmonary arrest
    • magnesium toxicity
    • severe hypoxemia/acidosis
    • massive embolism
    • increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
    • molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease
      (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
    • malignant arrhythmia
    • circulatory collapse
    • placental abruption
    • obstetric fistula
    More permanent side effects:


    • future infertility
    • permanent disability
    • death.
     
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  23. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    chris155au, Yesterday at 12:25 AM
    No, men are also told that it's just a bunch of cells. That's why a man would approve of his wife getting an abortion. """""


    You brought up a man's approval....which has nothing to do with women's right to abortion..
     
  24. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Are prisoners inside someone using their body to sustain their life? Uh, DUH, NO.
     
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  25. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Abortion has been resolved, it's legal :)…..and no one has done much to stop that :) Certainly no good arguments to take away half the population's rights :)
     
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