What day was Jesus really born on?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Daggdag, Dec 3, 2011.

  1. Daggdag

    Daggdag Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2010
    Messages:
    15,668
    Likes Received:
    1,957
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    It is a fact that Jesus was no born on december 25, which I stated in another post. But there are several contridictions in the bible about his real date of birth.


    Now the common myth is that Christ was born on December 25, in the year 1CE. For those of you who do not uderstand what CE means, It stand for Common Era. It is the time between BC (Before Christ) and AD (After Death). This myth was started when the Early Church was trying to assoiciate the Peagan holiday of Saturnalia, which took place from what we know as December 17th to the 25th, with Christianity. They did this because, in order to convert Roman citizens, they had promised that they would still be allowed to celebrate the holiday. The problem was that the Saturnalia had nothing to do with Christ. So, Christ's birthday was decreed to fall on December 25, in order to make the connection.


    The following was taken directly from a website, and I will give the link at the end of the post.

    The New Testament gives no date or year for Jesus’ birth. The earliest gospel – St. Mark’s, written about 65 CE – begins with the baptism of an adult Jesus. This suggests that the earliest Christians lacked interest in or knowledge of Jesus’ birthdate.

    The year of Jesus birth was determined by Dionysius Exiguus, a Scythian monk, “abbot of a Roman monastery. His calculation went as follows:

    a. In the Roman, pre-Christian era, years were counted from ab urbe condita (“the founding of the City” [Rome]). Thus 1 AUC signifies the year Rome was founded, 5 AUC signifies the 5th year of Rome’s reign, etc.

    b. Dionysius received a tradition that the Roman emperor Augustus reigned 43 years, and was followed by the emperor Tiberius.

    c. Luke 3:1,23 indicates that when Jesus turned 30 years old, it was the 15th year of Tiberius reign.

    d. If Jesus was 30 years old in Tiberius’ reign, then he lived 15 years under Augustus (placing Jesus birth in Augustus’ 28th year of reign).

    e. Augustus took power in 727 AUC. Therefore, Dionysius put Jesus birth in 754 AUC.

    f. However, Luke 1:5 places Jesus’ birth in the days of Herod, and Herod died in 750 AUC – four years before the year in which Dionysius places Jesus birth.


    D. Joseph A. Fitzmyer – Professor Emeritus of Biblical Studies at the Catholic University of America, member of the Pontifical Biblical Commission, and former president of the Catholic Biblical Association – writing in the Catholic Church’s official commentary on the New Testament[1], writes about the date of Jesus’ birth, “Though the year [of Jesus birth is not reckoned with certainty, the birth did not occur in AD 1. The Christian era, supposed to have its starting point in the year of Jesus birth, is based on a miscalculation introduced ca. 533 by Dionysius Exiguus.”

    E. The DePascha Computus, an anonymous document believed to have been written in North Africa around 243 CE, placed Jesus birth on March 28. Clement, a bishop of Alexandria (d. ca. 215 CE), thought Jesus was born on November 18. Based on historical records, Fitzmyer guesses that Jesus birth occurred on September 11, 3 BCE.




    http://http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm
     
  2. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Messages:
    27,731
    Likes Received:
    62
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Oh! You have a copy of His birth certificate? Then Jesus was not a myth. Cool. I can accept that.
     
  3. OverDrive

    OverDrive Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    11,990
    Likes Received:
    77
    Trophy Points:
    48
    [​IMG]

    We have a 'witness!"
     
  4. Daggdag

    Daggdag Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2010
    Messages:
    15,668
    Likes Received:
    1,957
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    George Washington didn't have a birth certificate either.
     
  5. mikezila

    mikezila New Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    Messages:
    23,299
    Likes Received:
    250
    Trophy Points:
    0
    America's first action hero doesn't need one!

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7iVsdRbhnc"]George Washington - YouTube[/ame]
     
  6. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Messages:
    27,731
    Likes Received:
    62
    Trophy Points:
    48
    So? George Washington is not the topic of discussion. Straw, anyone?
     
  7. mikezila

    mikezila New Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    Messages:
    23,299
    Likes Received:
    250
    Trophy Points:
    0
    but they are comparable.
     
  8. Pasithea

    Pasithea Banned at Members Request Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2011
    Messages:
    6,971
    Likes Received:
    83
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Scholars tend to believe he was born sometime in September. And I think I have read they actually believe he was conceived in December, which may have something to do with the December 25th thing.
     
  9. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Messages:
    27,731
    Likes Received:
    62
    Trophy Points:
    48
    "..tend to believe.."... that would mean that the scholars don't really KNOW. Not very scholarly of them to make assumptions when they don't have sufficient evidence to validate their suspicions.
     
  10. OverDrive

    OverDrive Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    11,990
    Likes Received:
    77
    Trophy Points:
    48

    Well, I found this one..but no month/day.....hmmmmm

    Will keep looking.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Messages:
    27,731
    Likes Received:
    62
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Awesome OD... Can I keep me a copy of that one without getting in trouble with the authorities over there? A copy of that one will be framed and hung on the wall next to and slightly above the degree that I have in computer electronics. I do sincerely hope that you tell me that I can keep a copy of that document.
     
  12. OverDrive

    OverDrive Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    11,990
    Likes Received:
    77
    Trophy Points:
    48
    You'll have to ask Josephus (from his Antiquities of the Jews, Book XXI), I got just this copy from him...
     
  13. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Messages:
    27,731
    Likes Received:
    62
    Trophy Points:
    48

    Thanks OD.. I will contact him.
     
  14. Daggdag

    Daggdag Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2010
    Messages:
    15,668
    Likes Received:
    1,957
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    You end up with different time frames depending on which gospel you use....

    According to Mark, Jesus turned 30 during the 15th year of Emperor Tiberius, the 3rd Emperor Rome's reign. If he was 15 when Tiberius became Emporer, that means he his first 15 years were the last 15 years of the previous Emperor, Augustus. Augustus took power in 727 AUC (AUC means The Founding of the City, which means 727 years after Rome was founded.) taking not account that Jesus was born 15 years before Augustus died, you can then take 727 and add 28 of the 43 years that August reigned and find Jesus' year of birth. Which would be somewhere between the years 754 and 755 AUC.

    However, according to the book of Luke, Jesus was born during the time of Harod. Harod died in 750 AUC, 4 to 5 years before the book of Mark says Jesus was born.

    There could be any number of reasons for this type of incosistency.

    One possibility is that the stories of Harod's involvement with Christ could be false. Harod was hated by his fellow Israelites because he was commonly known as a puppet for Rome. It's quite possible that Harod was added to the bible stories as a way to demonize him after he was already dead.

    Another possibility is that the writer of the book of Mark could have been mistaken. It's a commonly accepted fact that the most of the gospels were not writen by the aspostles themselves, but by either their followers, or someone using their names to give his works more credibility. it's quite possible that whoever wrote the book of mark waas simply mistaken on when Jesus was born and his old he was at certain times. Jesus could have been born several years earlier than the book of mark says, meaning he could have very well been born in the time of Harod, just as Luke says.
     
  15. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Messages:
    27,731
    Likes Received:
    62
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Gee... Sounds like Jesus is really confusing to those who desire to analyze everything according to some mathematical formula. Numbers are so uncertain when there is no base standard to use. Anno Domini ... The year of our Lord... Well, this is 2011 AD... are we sure about that? Are we 100% certain? Now look at what Jesus did.... He just upset the entire calendar system that is predominately used. What are we gonna do now??? My bills are due, but there is no way that I can determine when they are actually due. Oh I am so confused now... I suppose I should read this:
    http://www.neosophist.us/yzerofrm.htm and fill my mind with some more mythological teachings... If only Socrates were here, surely he could give a logical explanation of those myths. LOL
     
  16. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2006
    Messages:
    16,105
    Likes Received:
    234
    Trophy Points:
    0
    December 25th was simply the adoption of pagan practices to sway pagans into converting to Christianity. It has nothing to do with an actual birth date or conception.
     
    Lindis likes this.
  17. Margot

    Margot Account closed, not banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    Messages:
    62,072
    Likes Received:
    345
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Does it matter what the exact date was?

    BTW, lambing season in Palestine is in February.
     
  18. OverDrive

    OverDrive Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    11,990
    Likes Received:
    77
    Trophy Points:
    48
    It's nice to see you acknowledging that a conception & following birth still occurred even if they might have gotten the date wrong...and, it's funny that Jesus and Christians have taken over much of your vocabulary and posting time on this forum. Dare I say that you might even be 'obsessed' with the subject?!!
     
  19. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2006
    Messages:
    16,105
    Likes Received:
    234
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Do you have a point..... ?
     
  20. MisLed

    MisLed New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2011
    Messages:
    7,299
    Likes Received:
    329
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I was just watching a fascinating film about this. The Star of Bethlehem. If i remember correctly this all starts with the assigning of the death of Herod at the wrong time. And then based on the stars and the differences in the Jewish calendar and ours, lo and behold it makes the birth of christ come out on Our december 25th. So we ARE celebrating the birth of christ at the right time. As far as pagan ceremonies, etc etc etc. I'm seen so many atheists/secularists/leftists come at this from so many angles it only tells me that they are grasping at straws. Tell you what. You don't want to celebrate CHRISTmas then we won't force you. Now just allow us the same tolerance and we'll all be just fine.
     
  21. OverDrive

    OverDrive Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    11,990
    Likes Received:
    77
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Yes, guess I have to hold your hand on this, but "WE" (Jesus & His followers) have gotten into your head and monopolize your thoughts!!....as they say, "Mission Accomplished!"
     
  22. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2006
    Messages:
    16,105
    Likes Received:
    234
    Trophy Points:
    0
    This is amusing.

    Continue thinking that.

    I suppose you haven't considered the possibility that my position may recognize the existence of a particular man (or multiple personalities sewn into a collage), but still rejects the nations of god using a woman to give birth to himself so that he could sacrifice himself to himself to convince himself to change the rules he made?
     
  23. OverDrive

    OverDrive Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    11,990
    Likes Received:
    77
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Now I understand why you are confused....keep trying, tho.

    BTW, glad that I amused you...but I cant get a pic in my head of you ever laughing, as such....must be a 'cyber LOL'...huh?
     
  24. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2006
    Messages:
    16,105
    Likes Received:
    234
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Or it could be your spamming an thread with nonsense.
     
  25. OverDrive

    OverDrive Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    11,990
    Likes Received:
    77
    Trophy Points:
    48
    That might be your 'tomayto,' but my 'tomahto' is that YOU're obsessed with Jesus (or 'me'?!), and cant help but follow Him around, trying to 'get validations' by acting out with your rebellious 'crying for attention' postings.

    It's just all so obvious, Wolfie...I'll try to give you more of my time in the future when I can..OD
     

Share This Page