What do you think of Obama's proposed Buffett Rule?

Discussion in 'Budget & Taxes' started by Meta777, Feb 2, 2012.

  1. MisLed

    MisLed New Member

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    What be that Buffet rule. Only the political elite are allowed at the Buffet?
     
  2. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    Getting back to the point. Americans own about $10 trillion of the US national debt. With the artificial suppression of the "cost of money" to less than one percent by the Federal Reserve it's literally stealing about $400 billion per year from Americans that would be paid this money if they were receiving fair market value for money today. That's $400 billion of "theft" being committed by the Federal Reserve and the failure of that interest being paid is a causing a negative financial impact on the lives of tens of millions of people that invested hard earned cash expecting a reasonable return on their investment.

    Yes, the lower rates (which don't affect pre-existing mortgages and credit card debt) does benefit some individuals that obtain new loans but should the lower rates they receive come at the expense of retirees that depend upon T-Bills that they invested in to fund these lower interest loans? Have we now decided that robbing from retirees for the benefits of others is the path America should be following?
     
  3. Iriemon

    Iriemon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I disagree it is robbing. The course the Fed pursues should be the one that comports with its dual goals: promoting economic growth and price stability.
     
  4. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    In my opinion, the cognitive dissonance between party rhetoric and party performance is the most significant political issue in US politics.
     
  5. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Those ARM's have their interest rates capped whether it goes up or down. They are usually tied to Treasury securities which have been low for some time now. Yes ARM loans are effected but recently this effect should have been very small. And, those with 1,2-5 year ARM's, no matter the interest rates, better be prepared to convert when the time comes.

    I've never understood how CC interest is calculated but I'm guessing they do anything they wish as long as they don't violate laws.

    Regarding buying a home, I hate when Obama says 'everyone should be able to own a home'! This is stupid! Everyone who focuses on obtaining a stable career, saving money, being fiscally responsible...yes they should be able to own a home. Everyone else...NO...
     
  6. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    What is wrong with being more respectful to tradition; historically, tax rates on the wealthy have always been high during times of war.

    In my opinion, they should include wars on abstractions as a wartime metric, simply to better ensure such public policy choices do not become boondoggles and generational forms of theft.
     
  7. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    I would rather see the US government following the laws of the United States.

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/5119

    There are currently only two forms of legal tender in general circulation today.

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/5103

    United States coins refers to American Eagle Coins being produce under the Gold Bullion Coin Act of 1985 and, as noted in the law, Federal Reserve notes are the other form of legal tender in circulation today. Currently there is a disparity of about 30:1 in purchasing power between an American Gold or Silver Eagle and a Federal Reserve note of the same denomination.

    The Federal Reserve also has a statutory obligation to redeem Federal Reserve notes in lawful money and American Eagle coins are the only lawful money in the United States today.

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/12/411

    So I always come back to the fact that there is a huge disparity between Federal Reserve notes and American Eagle coins that the Federal Reserve and US Treasury are supposed to ensure doesn't exist under Title 31 and that the Federal Reserve has an obligation to redeem Federal Reserve notes in American Eagle coins which are the only "lawful money" (not legal tender) in the United States.

    Why are the Federal Reserve and US Treasury in compliance with these laws that are on the books today?

    Of note there is no "price stability" related to Federal Reserve notes that have historically lost over 97% of their purchasing power. If price stability is a responsibility of the Federal Reserve then the Federal Reserve has failed miserably related to it. The only way to maintain price stability is to ensure that American Eagles and Federal Reserve notes have the equal purchasing power as established by Title 31 above.
     
  8. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    This is just as stupid as Bush basically stating the same thing in his 2002 State of the Union Address which ultimately lead to the collapse of the housing industry due to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac promoting home loans for unqualified buyers and real estate speculators that created too many residential homes and over-inflated real estate prices.
     
  9. Iriemon

    Iriemon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Hi Shiva,

    As you know, I produced statutes, evidence and argument that disproved
    your theory here, which IMO is just silly, in other threads.

    So repeating this nonsense to me is just baiting and trolling.

    If anyone else on the board is interested in the statutes, evidence and argument that shows why Shiva's position is just plain wrong, let me know and I can direct you to the threads.

    Price stability in this context refers to the lack of volatility between large swings of high inflation and high deflation.
     
  10. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Unless you know about a time machine, we cannot go backwards and deal with Bush. But today the current president continues to promote the fantasy that all Americans should be able to own a home. The current president continues to harass the lending system to provide more loans for refinancing and purchases without focused regard to applicable qualifications...
     
  11. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    Might I request a PM of these statutes as I don't recall ever reading them. I know that 5119 was mentioned but that is also the same statute I quoted from and it does not prevent the US Treasury from redeeming Federal Reserve notes in Platinum Eagles and doen't limit the requirement of the Federal Reserve to redeem all Federal Reserve notes on demand which is required by Title 12 as quoted.

    But a PM with links would be appreciated to keep from addressing the matter here. Not required, but appreciated.
     
  12. Iriemon

    Iriemon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Starts here: http://www.politicalforum.com/curre...-fed-gave-16-trillion-emergency-loans-27.html
     
  13. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    This tends to ignore "cause and effect" and leading up to the real estate bubble bursting Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac were highly involved in driving up the new housing market and real estate prices as the chart in the first link shows. By 2005 housing prices and new home construction had already transitition into the world of speculation which distorted the housing market.

    The rapid expansion in the new housing market with prices soaring was similiar, by analogy, to Dutch Tulip Mania in the 17th Century and Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were very instrumental in driving this insanity. To compete with Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae many banks lowered their underwriting standards to the point that the virtually didn't exist.

    Individuals, fueled by the real estate frenzy with the unrealistic belief that over-inflated real estate prices would continue to increase purchased home for the maximum amount they qualified for even knowing that they could not sustain paying for the notes. The logic was simple. Get a loan for more than could be afforded long-term and simply sell at a profite in the future.

    The key though, even when the specific role of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are ignored, is that banking standards were lowered and individuals were assuming debt that they could not afford and this was driven by our government's interventionism in the economy. Both Democrats and Republicans are responsible for the recession as both advocate government interventionism in the economy which was the root cause of the 2008 recession.
     
  14. drj90210

    drj90210 Active Member

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    Amen to that!
     
  15. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    The aguments in that thread against Title 12's imposition of the requirement that the Federal Reserve must be redeemed in "lawful money" upon demand failed.

    We only have two forms of "legal tender" being produced in the United States and those are American Eagle coins and Federal Reserve notes. If a Federal Reserve note is "redeemable" in "lawful money" and we only have American Eagle coins as the only other legal tender in the United States. By process of elimination Federal Reserve notes are redeemable in American Eagle coins. There are no other choices and American Eagles are not "promissory" in nature which means they are actual money as opposed to Federal Reserve notes that under the law are promissory notes. Federal Reserve notes promise money and American Eagle coins are money. Both are legal tender in the United States and they are the only legal tender in the United States today.
     
  16. Iriemon

    Iriemon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Addressed and rebutted in this thread: http://www.politicalforum.com/curre...-fed-gave-16-trillion-emergency-loans-27.html
     
  17. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    There was no successful rebuttal. As note if Federal Reserve notes are redeemable in lawful money, which Title 12 states they are, and the only other legal tender in the United States is American Eagle coins (Ref Title 31's definition of legal tender) then Federal Reserve notes can only be redeemed in American Eagles. There is nothing else that they can be redeemed for as American Eagles are the only other legal tender in the United States today under Title 31.

    But that takes us off topic here. Here we discuss the "Buffett Rule" which will not solve anything for the United States. It's pennies when we need dollars to balance the budget. We need draconian cuts in spending and draconian increases in taxation. We need to get back to a budget like 2000 and then go even further by creating a surplus budget to pay down the national debt.

    The current national debt is ten times the disposable revenues that are used to pay the interest on the debt. If the prime interest rate exceeds 10%, which it has done in the past, then all of the tax revenues (excluding FICA/Payroll taxes which are dedicated taxes) will be required to pay just the interest on the national debt. What part of that do Americans and the politicians fail to understand?
     
  18. Iriemon

    Iriemon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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