What do you think will become of the USA when leftist regain full control?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by BasicHumanUnit2, Sep 9, 2018.

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What will happen when Leftist regain total control?

  1. They will be pacified and peace and harmony will spread coast to coast

  2. Nothing. it will be about the same as it is now

  3. There will be resentment as their corruption sets in but little violence or chaos

  4. Things will get chaotic and violence will spread. Bad times.

  5. People on the Right will be targeted and abused by the Left

Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. ImNotOliver

    ImNotOliver Well-Known Member

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    Put it a different way. Think of liberals as Tarzan living in his jungle paradise. The conservatives are those who come in, kill the elephants, cut down the trees, run off the natives and burn their village.
     
  2. freedom8

    freedom8 Well-Known Member

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    I understand your point. However, I assume you accept an minimum age to drive a car. Why not to own/carry a gun?
     
  3. navigator2

    navigator2 Banned

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    You have this exactly backasswards. This is what happens when lefties move in..............including assessing taxes, building crappy Section 8 apartments, and running the natives out of the region to safer places.
     
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  4. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Donor

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    This is a really picayune list of bad things conservative Republicans do. First off you do not seem to grasp that "public ownership" includes federal, state, county or parish, and city ownership of land. Second you lose credibility when you cite fictitious numbers. A 20-year life expectancy difference???? Six years is the difference between the highest state and the lowest state. California is #4 and one of only two western states in the top ten.

    Republicans want dirty air and water, and hate art and artists are trite memes that are illogical, without substantiation, and downright stupid. Right up there with us pushing grandma off the cliff in her wheelchair.

    Logging helps prevent forest fires. Logging companies plant more trees than they cut down. And I'm confused, do you want loggers to have jobs or not. One question: what percent of forest land never sees more than a dozen tourists in a year?

    There has never been a successful oil/gas well off shore of Oregon, Washington, or southern Vancouver.

    We might take away your weed? Poor man. Say it isn't so. I am in favor of decriminalizing marijuana, but do you recall it was outlawed by a Democrat administration -- albeit aided by some Republicans?

    Abortions are legal and accessible in every state, though not on every street corner. (Maybe Starbucks can get in the business.......) What exactly do you think the Republicans can do about it? There can be some restrictions put on abortions, like no abortion a week before delivery, but nothing unreasonable. Not paying for some strangers abortion is not unreasonable.
     
  5. bois darc chunk

    bois darc chunk Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The Constitution doesn't have to say anything about marriage. Obergefell isn't really about marriage. It's about equal treatment… and the Constitution does speak to that.
     
  6. bois darc chunk

    bois darc chunk Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I can appreciate your leeriness (if that is a word- haha,) but all our rights have some limits. You can say whatever you want, but you're not free from the consequences of what you say. If you're violent enough that the police have been called to your house 30+ times, that kind of information isn't covered by HIPAA laws, but certainly does speak to a reason someone shouldn't be able to pass a background check. It seems a bit ridiculous to me that multiple police calls isn't notated in NICS, but then the SC church shooter had been charged with a felony, and under SC law, that information should have been entered into NICS, but it wasn't. If it had been, he wouldn't have been able to purchase the gun he used to murder those people. At some point, the right of people to not be mass murdered by unstable people should trump the right of an unstable person to have access to weapons that can kill dozens in seconds. The American people see it that way, but Congress won't move.

    Moving this post back on topic… because Congress won't act on things like this, we're seeing a movement away from the party in control. It's a logical step when the government becomes unresponsive.
     
  7. dagosa

    dagosa Well-Known Member

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    Nine of the last 10 recession have been under Republicans. So if you're happy to lose your money and your job, they'll be your party of choice. The economy improves under liberals who pays their bills.
     
  8. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Donor

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    I hate to be picky but the Constitution says equal protection, not equal treatment; this speaks to my point.
    The case was too about marriage. The court didn't rule that a same sex couple could ride a ferris wheel, or ride in a car, or rent an apartment, or open a joint bank account together. It ruled they could get married, and despite the overwhelming disagreement of the people and the states. SCOTUS simply forced state legislation on all the states.
    For me personally I don't like same sex marriages but I don't really care much. Actually there is a valid concern or complaint that same sex couples have that they address by getting married. My view is that those problems are valid and could have been easily solved through simple administrative action and simple legislation without blowing the place up. Things like hospital visitation rights and spousal inheritance (which can be a biggie), just for examples.
     
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  9. bois darc chunk

    bois darc chunk Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I understand what NICS is. What's more important is what NICS is supposed to do.

    The National Instant Criminal Background Check System, or NICS, is all about saving lives and protecting people from harmby not letting guns fall into the wrong hands. It also ensures the timely transfer of firearms to eligible gun buyers.
    https://www.fbi.gov/services/cjis/nics
    Yes, it's a database. Yes, police should be adding things to the database, but they don't, at least not as accurately and timely as they need to. Here's the issue… in the case of the Vegas shooter, he bought guns in different states. There was no way for those states to know the guy was buying guns in any state but their own. The only entity to know that he had amassed 55 purchases in one calendar year was NICS. We have all kinds of automated announcements. NICS can automate local police notifications- to let them know someone in their community has purchased a large number of guns in one year, enough to be suspicious.

    ATF didn't visit the Vegas shooter, but he did purchase 55 guns in one calendar year. Perhaps if the ATF had checked NICS for mass purchases without an FFL and visited him, all those people killed and wounded wouldn't have been harmed. It seems like the Bureau charged with controlling firearms would check the database that clears purchasers for firearms routinely, but it seems they don't.

    Let me ask you this… do you remember the Patriot Act? The government intercepted and collected every single phone call, text message, voice mail, email, etc., for every single person in the country, citizen or not… for the purpose of "homeland security and anti-terrorism." Is there anything more terrifying than the idea that your child could be murdered in their classroom? That your loved ones are not safe from murder when they attend church, a movie, a party, a dance, or just go to work? I'd like to see NICS be more comprehensive, but also actually do the job it was intended to do- save lives and protect people from harm.

    There certainly is due process to the lists, and there is one for NICS. If you can't fly in the US because you're considered a danger, why in the world should you be able to buy a weapon? If you're on the no-fly list, or have been denied the ability to purchase a gun, there is an appeals process.

    We don't lack the ability to protect people from mass murder. We lack the will in Congress, even though 90% of Americans want them to move on it. There were no school shootings when I was a student. Kids today start active shooter drills in kindergarten, and it is a very real part of their lives. They don't see why, in a nation that invented the internet, there isn't active legislation to keep kids safe in school, and they are becoming politically active because of it. IMO, they will make the US a better country, but it is also quite possible it will be a very different country when they take control. They aren't going to accept that NRA donations control votes in Congress to do anything about fixing NICS or keeping kids safe in classrooms.
     
  10. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Donor

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    Though three of those nine were caused by Democrat administrations.
     
  11. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Donor

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    There is no due process to getting on the no-fly list. Due process occurs before conviction or penalty. Appeals come after the fact and are not due process.
     
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  12. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You don't seem to understand that if law enforcement and mental health people don't bother giving you a criminal history, NICs won't help.

    You used the FL example. You fail to explain how "moar" background checks would have stopped him. They would have never stopped him because law enforcement, the school, the FBI and the mental health "experts" failed to do ANYTHING to document it in NICs.

    The Sutherland Springs shooter. Same thing. DoD put NONE of his information into NICs and he was an escapee from a mental institution for God's sake.

    NIC's is not the problem. Identifying people and documenting them is the problem. These things can only happen at the local level. When they fail to do so, the system fails. In order for the system to work, it has to be used correctly.

    In either of these cases, had the government and law enforcement done it's job correctly, neither could have lawfully purchased a weapon.

    These are just two examples. There are many, many more.

    https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/fact-sheet/fact-sheet-multiple-firearms-sales

    Two of the states that he purchased his rifles from already have reporting requirements for multiple rifle purchases.

    All states have to report multiple handgun purchases.

    Regardless, the Las Vegas shooting was unique in many ways, and there are far more disturbing questions than the ones you've asked.

    The truth is Las Vegas was a unique event.

    Most mass shootings happen because government and law enforcement either fails to act, or fails to document a person who should be prohibited.

    That's right. There were no school shootings when we were kids.

    When I was a kid the parking lot was full of trucks with hunting guns and shotguns in racks. The principal would show us his guns.

    Access to firearms hasn't changed. People changed.

    Oh and no, there is no "due process" for the no-fly list. You can be placed on such a list without even being notified.

    The reason is because being suspected of being a criminal is not sufficient reason to revoke your rights.
     
  13. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    That's your response? I actually took your question seriously. The plain fact is that the people who are in favor of decentralization of political authority based on the constitution are in far less danger to you than someone like you, who believes that States are simply the Airstrip One of an all encompassing State and that the personal is political; are to people on the right.
     
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  14. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Should we tell him that Tarzan is clearly a libertarian and the all powerful government is more to the liking of leftists?
     
  15. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    My guess is that he thinks Tarzan is a Bernie-Bro.
     
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  16. bois darc chunk

    bois darc chunk Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If a citizen is treated unequally, by the government, from the way other citizens are treated by the government, their rights are being violated. The key word there is government. The whole situation of Obergefell was that some state governments were treating some citizens one way, and other citizens a different way, but Constitutional rights are federally protected.

    SCOTUS didn't force the states to do anything. Rather, they enforced the Constitutional provision of equal treatment and due process. While you do have a point that some issues could have been corrected in another way than a SCOTUS decision, the larger issue was an unconstitutional discrimination based on their sexual orientation.

    Now, if you're trying to say that the law is not equally applied, I'll agree with you. That's why cases go to the SCOTUS in the first place.
     
  17. Plus Ultra

    Plus Ultra Well-Known Member

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    Given the conduct exhibited by liberals now, I expect conservatives will reciprocate. With Democrat legislators openly calling on lefties to confront and harass members of Trump's cabinet and conservatives in general, likely conservatives would call for something like this against liberals and their followers.
     
  18. bois darc chunk

    bois darc chunk Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thank you for the bold above. We completely agree on those points. Yes, the people required to update NICS failed us. I disagree with you that the problem isn't NICS though. The law that makes NICS isn't complete enough. It doesn't include all the things that need to be included and there is an obvious lack of accountability and consequences for those charged with reporting to NICS. Congress should address those things. They can also address HIPAA compliance issues with mentally unstable people and NICS, since they wrote both HIPAA and NICS. Congress is failing the American people.

    The right to bear arms has to do with protection and security, not aggression. Mass shooters aren't trying to defend themselves or secure a free state. They are terrorists.

    People didn't change from when we were kids to now. Access to firearms did change though. There were violent people then and there are violent people now. Five to 10% of the population was sociopathic then and are sociopathic now. The difference is that we used to put violent, mentally unstable people in hospitals, locked away from the population at large. Now we treat them with medication and they walk among the rest of us. All is good, until they don't take their medication. Then things can go really badly. I don't think we're going to start putting people back in mental hospitals, so instead of limiting their access to weapons because they are locked away in a hospital, we're going to have to do it another way. Maybe NICS will work, with some tweaks. Maybe we need a whole different method. One way or the other, we have to solve this problem. We are the only country that has it, so it is something we're not doing right. That's why I have advocated for responsible gun owner to take the lead in fixing the issue. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

    There is a process to dispute being placed on the no-fly list. I'm not saying it is adequate, but there is a process. https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/what-do-if-you-think-youre-no-fly-list

    States do have to report multiple hand gun purchases, but what kind of gun is used in most mass shootings? Long guns... and states aren't required to report multiple purchases of them. The Vegas shooter had some handguns, but no one was reporting all the long guns he bought. Notice that someone else could also purchase 55 long guns in a year, without being an FFL, no one would be reporting him, and he could be selling them illegally. That is a flaw in the system that should be addressed.

    I'm not asking disturbing questions. I'm outright stating that the system designed to prevent bad guys getting guns is inadequate, and it lacks consequences for inaccurate reporting. Therefore, it should be improved or replaced with a system that does what NICS was intended to do.
     
  19. bois darc chunk

    bois darc chunk Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is a process to dispute being on the no fly list.
    https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/what-do-if-you-think-youre-no-fly-list

    The point is that you can be denied the ability to fly in the United States, because you are considered dangerous, and still be allowed to legally purchase a firearm. That does not make sense.
     
  20. Max Rockatansky

    Max Rockatansky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    A false equivalency for two reasons: Age of citizenship is, although patchy due to drinking laws, considered to be 18 years old. Second, driving a car is not an enumerated right.

    Why don't we let 16 year olds vote? Own a gun? Have sex with other "adults"? If it were up to me, I'd raise the age for all of it to 21 at a minimum.
     
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  21. Max Rockatansky

    Max Rockatansky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The party not in control isn't any help either since they go-to solution to anything is to ban it or double the penalty with mandatory sentencing.

    Yes, I should be able to own one gun or 50. What I can't do it use it illegally. If I do, then you are correct, I should pay the consequences. In Nikolas Cruz's case, he was known to be mentally ill and, as you pointed out, well known to the police. Why was he allowed to own a gun? Dylann Roof couldn't pass a background check, yet he, too, was sold a gun. Instead of trying to punish innocent, responsible citizens with more draconian laws that continue to eat away at the Constitution, why aren't we focusing on fixing the laws that already exist?
     
  22. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well it's not just HIPAA. There are any number of laws specifically dealing with mental health confidentiality. Undoing them could lead to a number of unintended consequences.

    We also have to be careful when we talk about "mental illness" in the broad context. We don't want to infringe on the rights of non-violent people who are classified as having a mental illness. An eating disorder, for example. It can happen, because this is exactly what the Obama administration was trying to push through the SSA.

    How we could charge states for not entering information into NICs seems unclear to me. If that's possible, then we can also arrest people who set up "sanctuary cities" or fail to follow other federal regulations.

    I think people have changed. The country as a whole is a lot more vitriolic than I recall. People seem less centered and more easily angered. More likely to do violent things.

    As a teen, you might get into fights, but no one was looking to pick up a gun and kill as many people as possible. They might target an individual, but mass shootings now are about killing as many random people as possible.

    Now we have 17 and younger kids in high schools planting bombs or planning to kill as many as possible. Columbine was an entirely new thing in the 90's.

    Actually border states do have rifle reporting requirements, as I indicated in my ATF link. Two of the states he bought his rifles from (CA and TX) have those multiple rifle reporting requirements.

    Oh and actually most mass shootings are done with handguns, by far.

    Regardless, that wouldn't really help with mass shootings (other than 1 example, ever), it would really only address trafficking. I suppose it would address criminal access indirectly.

    You only need one or two weapons to go on a rampage, so unless you're arming a whole group of people or selling them illegally its not going to stop mass shootings.

    I didn't say you're asking disturbing questions. I said that the Las Vegas shooting has a lot more disturbing questions that no one is asking. The entire event has a large number of glaring issues no one seems to be addressing.

    We saw much the same with the NM terror compound training kids to be mass shooters. It's reported, then it goes away. Nada. The state wanted to just let them loose, but thankfully the Feds stepped in and re-arrested them.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2018
  23. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It makes perfect sense.

    Your rights cannot be taken without due process, and it's not something we should be encouraging.
     
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  24. Max Rockatansky

    Max Rockatansky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    While I will readily agree the Left is very authoritarian, so is the Right. Sure they claim they want smaller government, but they also want to impose 19th century abortion and marriage laws. They are 21st century versions of 18th Century Tories - in short, very authoritarian and, like the Left, they will try very hard to shut anyone down who disagrees with them such as typing in all caps and ridiculing the opposition.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2018
  25. bois darc chunk

    bois darc chunk Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your right to bear arms pertains to personal protection and securing a free state. If you're not using a firearm for one of those purposes, then you don't have a Constitutional right to bear arms. None of our rights are unlimited, and there are already restrictions on the 2nd amendment, like age, mental health, felony status, and firepower.
     
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