What, exactly, is socialism? Again this discussion seems necessary.

True, forgot about North Korea and South Africa.

 

I will come to the USA in time. The ruling ideology of neoliberalism, the ruling elites recognize, has been discredited across the political spectrum. This is forcing the elites to make unsavory alliances with neofascists, who in the United States are represented by the Christian right. This Christianized fascism is swiftly filling Trump’s ideological void. It is embodied in figures such as Mike Pence, Mike Pompeo, Brett Kavanaugh and Betsy DeVoss.

In its most virulent form, one that will be expressed once the economy goes into crisis, this Christian fascism will seek to purge the society of those branded as social deviants, including immigrants, Muslims, “secular humanist” artists and intellectuals, feminists, gays and lesbians, Native Americans and criminals—largely poor people of color—based on a perverted and heretical interpretation of the Bible. Abortion will be illegal. The death penalty will be mandated for a variety of crimes. Education will be dominated by white supremacist views of history, indoctrination and the teaching of creationism or “intelligent design.” The "new America heroes" will include Robert E. Lee, Joseph McCarthy and Richard Nixon. The state will portray the white majority as victims. Get ready. It's coming.

 

Why do you adamantly defend Socialism?

Have you read the book that explains socialism by historians Durant?

 

My goodness.

A good book about neoconservatism is by the father of the movement.

It is not what you claim.

 

OK, this is about Robert E. Lee since the others you named were not responsible for the training, the skill of command and the correctness of his cause as was Robert E. Lee.

Robert E. Lee is not remotely in the class as Nixon nor McCarthy.

Robert E. Lee was forced into a fight. A fight waged indeed by a Republican. A Republican who was elected by perhaps 40 percent of the vote. Democrats it seems to me would go to war to prevent a man with such slack following being in charge.

All the South had done was elect a different government. As a nation built on revolution, it is correct as the founders themselves stated, perhaps a revolution every 20 years is a necessary evil.

Nothing the South did was illegal. When the States formed the Federal Government, the last thing they wanted was a perpetual dictatorship.

The South felt a dictator took charge and by only 40 percent.

When the people gather to vote, and vote to change a form of Government, and do so with no force, how can the will of the public so impacted be wrong?

We elected Trump. A lot of Americans believe that is wrong. So they resist the president. They even call their movement the resistance. They have a committed media helping them resist.

If Trump sent troops with cannon to wage war against the resistance, though I do not agree with the resistance, at least they would be loyal to their views and wage war back on Trump.

Would I support Trump sending in the cannon and troops?

Definitely not.

What if they voted to leave, then what? I support the right of the public to live under the government of their choice.

 

I doubt the plutocrats accept neoliberalism as anything more than a means and strategy to maximize their wealth. Consider the City of Rolling Hills in California. It's a private city, the second richest in the state by per capita income, with access limited to residents and invited guests. There are four access gates manned 24/7/365 by guards. Homes in the city must be white, fencing must be wooden white three-rail, and all structures must be approved by a community association that runs in parallel with the city government. There have been rich people who decided they would go ahead an build what they liked. The community association makes them tear it down. Neoliberals would insist on having their way.

I'm not so sure they're collectively neofascists, but there is a strong fascist leadership element involved.

DeVoss is the power structure; the others are useful idiots.

They'll likely try to have their way. Whether or not they get their way will be the struggle.

It would likely be more subtle, of course, and I appreciate you used obvious icons to make your point.

I love the types around this forum who associate collective production with fascism. They don't understand fascism is the reaction of the ownership class to the threat of collectivizing production.

 

Does your flavor of socialism require the enforcement by guns?

 

No! Violent revolution has been a disaster for known reasons.

 

R.I.F.

He said nothing of revolution, he is talking about enforcement.

 

No more than it is required in capitalist society and probably much less.

 

So in your flavor of socialism, there would be no guns turned against those who wished to purchase labor services?

 

Don't know. Don't care.

 

I asked you: So in your flavor of socialism, there would be no guns turned against those who wished to purchase labor services?

It's scary that you claim not to know, nor care, about the effects of what you are suggesting.

 

Don't know. Don't care.

 

Socialism is at its heart feudalism and slavery with the State taking the place of the King.
It denies the soverignty of the citizen and relegates the people to slaves under the jurisdiction of the State.
It is most dramatically flawed in its premise that the State can and would ever act in the interests of the people.
Fact is that all humans are fundementally flawed, and any human given power over another will use that power to exploit and subjugate that person. Socialism concentrates the rights and powers of the people into the state and denies any rights or powers to the individual. It is as Orson Wells said " a boot stomping on the face of humanity forever".

 

Not at all.

 

You might have a better time of it if you just said that you were advocating for worker-owned companies.

When people hear the word "socialism" they picture people taking property and killing people. Like the Bolsheviks .

 

You're right, of course. But it also creates a problem if the word is avoided and concealed and then people later learn it's really socialism we have in mind. What's really needed is a program to explain the truth and expose the propaganda. But I find there are plenty of people out there including those who are enthusiastically anti-republican and anti-right wing and who are afraid to look at socialism objectively. It's too scary.

We might have to wait for another generation that hasn't been so indoctrinated.

 

I don't know if it would be possible for you to find anyone who opposes worker-owned firms.

So why do you insist on calling 'worker-owned firms' socialism? It just scares people.

 

Well, I have had a number of people who realized their error and have lost their fear of socialism. So it works both ways. I figure the time will come when so many are willing to consider socialism that it will spread from there. And I'm not willing to hide it and be found out later. I believe the result would be worse than being honest up front and risk losing a few people now.

 

You're not advocating socialism. You're advocating worker-owned firms. No thinking person would oppose what you're suggesting.

 

They are advocating for nothing but worker owned firms- any other type would be against the law and the full monopoly of force would be leveraged against anyone not agreeing.

In other words, it is another utopian statist idea that doesn't understand the failing of any economy- for capitalism, socialism and communism, is the existence of the state.

The problem is that socialism and communism require the state to function yet capitalism does not.

In other words, a statist is a statist is a statist.

 

Lol. A statist is a statist is a statist. You are true-ing.

 

They're not actually advocating for worker-owned firms. They actually are advocating for the theft of property.

They try to hide it, but anyone can see thru their facade.

 

LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "WE DON'T HAVE A STATE MACHINE TO ENFORCE LAWS!!!" LOL!!!!!

We don't have labor laws, RICO laws, usury laws, business reporting laws, licensing laws, anti-competition laws, certification laws, laws governing production of alcohol, tobacco, food and many other things, AND AN ENTIRE ARRAY OF AGENCIES TO ENFORCE THEM ALL, RIGHT?

LOL!!!!!

Next time you might want to think a bit more before you type.