What to believe in China and Tibet issue?

Discussion in 'Asia' started by MadPanda, Jul 11, 2013.

  1. MadPanda

    MadPanda New Member

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    Recently I have read many articles which is quite contradict and opposite. I really dont know whom to believe.:eekeyes::confusion: :steamed:

    In Tibetan side, they say that: ' China has used the education as a tool to inculcate loyalty to the Chinese state and to denigrate Tibetan cultural identity and values. Tibetans children are not allowed to speak Tibetans at school and learned in Tibetans language. It does not only violate the right of Tibetans to know about their own culture but also have a direct impact on Tibetans' ability to flourish in their education. This is the reason why many Tibetans do not encourage their children to school because what they teach at school are all lies.' (http://fnotw.org/Article/Full/166)

    On the other hand, Chinese supporters advocate the idea that the Dalai Lama did not do anything for education. They have invested much money for TIbetan education but Tibetan still do not appreciate it (http://fnotw.org/Article/Full/1330)

    Are there anyone out here having any opinions? What does the Chinese government should do to stop the anger of Tibetans?
     
  2. Angedras

    Angedras New Member

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    Welcome to the forum MadPanda.

    :thumbsup:
     
  3. reedak

    reedak Well-Known Member

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    Seeing is believing. Go to Tibet to see for yourself.

    There is no way to please everybody in the world. You might as well ask these three questions:

    1. What should the US government do to placate the Native Americans?

    2. What should the US government do to placate all the Muslims in the world?

    3. What should the government in every country do to placate all its citizens?
     
  4. Iolo

    Iolo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If any population doesn't want to be ruled by others, everyone has a duty to support their freedom, At the moment the Middle Kingdom, like the USA, is too strong to be brought to justice - but we are a patient race, we humans.
     
  5. s002wjh

    s002wjh Well-Known Member

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    is this the same free tibet group that says china economy doesn't benefit them while complain they don't want learn stuff in schools? if you were to hired a skill worker in US, would you hire someone with college degrees, with good english skill or someone who never graduate from middle school, can't speak english?

    china treat tibean just like every other chinese, the oppression of freedom of speech is same for all chinese whether is han, tibetan or other ethnic group, but its not as bad as many people think. you can privately criticize government no one care, what they care is outright protest on issues such as democracy.

    for tibetan because they threaten independence, hence china crack down on them. thats the only thing that free tibet group got it right. if you goto tibet, youll see there are buddist monk everywhere, temple everywhere, tibetan language is on almost all shops, etc etc.
     
  6. reedak

    reedak Well-Known Member

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    If you live in a Chinatown in the US or any other Western country, nobody will care about your survival or your language ability. If you cannot get a job due to your inability to speak and write English, you have to struggle for your own survival by whatever means: cheating, stealing, robbing, begging, etc.

    If you don't know English in the US, that's your own business. Nobody in the US would force you to learn English. If you were a Chinese immigrant without any knowledge of English, you would end up your whole life in a Chinatown washing dishes in a restaurant or washing clothes in a laundry. If you want to be the US Ambassador to China, of course you must attend an English school. If you want to be somebody at the Heritage Foundation, you would have no choice but to learn English. Once you have mastered English to become somebody at a government department in the US, you could afford to forget your Chinese roots. Then you can even say publicly: "If I were a Chinese, I would do this or not do that."

    I think the Chinese Central Government should copy the American Indian reservations by reserving certain regions in Tibet for the Tibetans. In those reservations, the Tibetans can do whatever they like or speak whatever they like without the Central Government's interference. However, if the Tibetans were to venture outside those reservations, e.g. to big cities or even to smaller Chinese towns, they would have to struggle for their own survival just as what the uneducated Chinese Americans in the Chinatowns or the Native Americans in the Indian reservations experience when they move to cities like New York or Chicago.
     
  7. ThirdTerm

    ThirdTerm Well-Known Member

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    [video=youtube;pG3eNBEDWEc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pG3eNBEDWEc[/video]

    There are hundreds of ethnic minority groups in China such as the Uyghurs of mixed European and East Asian ancestry, who are living in "East Turkestan", and the Tibetans are not the only ethnic group who consider themselves as oppressed minorities. The Dalai Lama has been travelling freely to the US to garner support for the cause of Tibetan independence after an abortive uprising against Chinese rule in 1959. Ethnic nationalism has been the source of violent conflicts throughout history and it's wrong to presume that every ethnic minority group in a country is entitled to self-determination.
     
  8. MadPanda

    MadPanda New Member

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    Thank you thank you! Warm hug :) :rock_slayer:
     
  9. reedak

    reedak Well-Known Member

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    1. Of all the ethnic minority groups in China, only two groups claim to be oppressed minorities. Mind you, not every member in the two groups complains about oppression. The claims come mainly from the separatists who have been offered refuge in the US and elsewhere. In the Age of the Internet, a few individuals from each ethnic group could create the illusion and amplify their voice to claim to be representatives of the whole community.

    By Official US Government statements and records there are over 4,000 Native American tribes; only 513 of which are still 'recognized' by the US Government. Not mentioning the racism experienced by other ethnic minority groups in the US, Native Americans are the most harshly affected by institutionalized racism.

    How many Native American tribes are there?
    http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_Native_American_tribes_are_there

    2. Following are excerpts from the article headlined "Racism and ethnic discrimination in the United States" at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_and_ethnic_discrimination_in_the_United_States

    (Begin excerpts)
    Racism and ethnic discrimination in the United States has been a major issue since the colonial era and the slave era. Legally sanctioned racism imposed a heavy burden on Native Americans, African Americans, Asian Americans, and Latin Americans. European Americans (particularly Anglo Americans) were privileged by law in matters of literacy, immigration, voting rights, citizenship, land acquisition, and criminal procedure over periods of time extending from the 17th century to the 1960s. Many non-Protestant European immigrant groups, particularly Jews, Irish people, Poles and Italians, suffered xenophobic exclusion and other forms of discrimination in American society.

    Major racially and ethnically-structured institutions included slavery, Indian Wars, Native American reservations, segregation, residential schools for Native Americans, and internment camps. Formal racial discrimination was largely banned in the mid-20th century, and came to be perceived as socially unacceptable and/or morally repugnant as well, yet racial politics remain a major phenomenon. Historical racism continues to be reflected in socioeconomic inequality, and has taken on more modern, indirect forms of expression, most prevalently symbolic racism. Racial stratification continues to occur in employment, housing, education, lending, and government.

    Many people in the U.S. continue to have some prejudices against other races. In the view of the US Human Rights Network, a network of scores of US civil rights and human rights organizations, "Discrimination permeates all aspects of life in the United States, and extends to all communities of color". Discrimination against African Americans, Latin Americans, and Muslims is widely acknowledged. Members of every major American ethnic minority have perceived racism in their dealings with other minority groups.... (End excerpts)

    1. The Chinese government should allow any Native American chief to travel freely to China to garner support for the cause of Native American independence.

    It is ironical for such a country as the US with rampant racism and ethnic discrimination, particularly against the natives, to champion the cause of independence for ethnic minorities in other countries.

    2. Following are excerpts from the article headlined "Racism Against Native Americans" at http://www.dosomething.org/tipsandtools/racism-against-native-americans

    (Begin excerpts)
    Discrimination against Native Americans is the longest held racism in the United States. It dates back to the arrival of the pilgrims and the subsequent invasion of the continent. In an effort to obtain much of North America as territory of the United States, a long series of wars and massacres forced displacements (including the well-known Trail of Tears), restriction of food rights, and the imposition of treaties. Ideologies justifying the context included stereotypes of Native Americans as "merciless Indian savages" and the quasi-religious doctrine of manifest destiny, which asserted divine blessing for U.S. conquest of all lands west of the Atlantic seaboard to the Pacific.

    Once their territories were incorporated into the United States, many surviving Native Americans were relegated to reservations— constituting just 4 percent of U.S. territory— and the treaties signed with them were violated. Tens of thousands were forced to attend a residential school system, which sought to reeducate them in white settler American values, culture and economy.

    To this day, Native Americans are the most harshly affected by institutionalized racism. The World Watch Institute notes that 317 reservations are threatened by environmental hazards. While formal equality has been legally granted, American Indians, Alaska Natives, Native Hawaiians and Pacific Islanders remain among the most economically disadvantaged groups in the country, and suffer from high levels of alcoholism and suicide...... (End excerpts)

    ‘US govt. discriminates against Native Americans’
    http://www.presstv.com/detail/2012/12/12/277725/native-americans-suffer-discrimination/

    Racism, Justice and the American Indian
    Racism against Native Americans
    Forgotten Story of Indian Slavery
    http://clevelandsearch.com/Native-Americans.html

    Racism Against Native Americans Must Be Addressed
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tim-giago/racism-against-native-ame_b_309017.html

    Racism Review
    http://www.racismreview.com/blog/tag/native-americans/

    This is true for most countries including the US and other Western countries.

    Whether an ethnic minority can achieve self-determination depends on many factors, particularly the geographical factor. For instance, the so-called "domestic dependent nations" of America could never really become independent sovereign nations as they are tiny pockets of landlocked regions surrounded by non-native territories.

    Tribal sovereignty in the United States
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribal_sovereignty_in_the_United_States

    AMERICAN INDIAN SOVEREIGNTY:
    NOW YOU SEE IT, NOW YOU DON'T
    http://www.umass.edu/legal/derrico/nowyouseeit.html
     
  10. reedak

    reedak Well-Known Member

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    My friend, if everyone thinks like you, there will be perpetual strife all over the world because ethnic minorities exist not only in China and the US but in all countries. There are large ethnic communities without a state, e.g. the Romani people or Gypsy of Europe, the Ainu of Japan (Hokkaidō) and Russia (Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands), the Kurds of West Asia, the Rohingya of Burma, the Palestinians of Palestine, etc. In almost all countries, even in the United Kingdom and Japan, we can find separatist or independence movements.

    Well, you may be a patient member of the human race. While you are waiting patiently for the day when every ethnic group has a state of its own, don't forget to relax and enjoy yourself amidst the perpetual strife of mankind.

    Romani people
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people

    Kurdish people
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people

    Ainu people
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_people

    Rohingya people
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohingya_people

    Palestinian diaspora
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_diaspora

    Stateless nation
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stateless_nation
     
  11. mutmekep

    mutmekep New Member

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    China is illegally occupying a another nation's land
     
  12. Iolo

    Iolo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    World government will come, and each of these people should obviously control its own destiny under that .
    Meanwhile, the great benefit of the EU for many of us is that the bully-boys don't agree amongst themselves, which has reduced the pressure on us in the UK, on the oppressed peoples in Spain and even to some extent those suffering under the French strutters. The removal of the Nazi regime occupying Palestine will not be long, nor the unity of Kurdistan. I think that the Burmese bullies are under a lot of pressure already. The difficulty about the Romani is their lack of a territory: they need to be represented at continental level.
     
  13. Iolo

    Iolo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sure - and not only in Tibet. The problem, always, is what to do about particular instances of oppression, and, on the whole, history makes 'westerners' the last people to be useful to those the Chinese are oppressing.
     
  14. mutmekep

    mutmekep New Member

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    The west is only exporting problems not solutions , doing anything will probably mean more trouble for minorities there . When nobody protests Brazil or Canada violating the rights of natives only crazies would go against China .
     
  15. s002wjh

    s002wjh Well-Known Member

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    so does israel. we got our land from american indian too. so does most latin america, so does australia.
     
  16. Iolo

    Iolo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Brecht had a story about the German conquest of Poland. An SS man arrives at a Polish house and tells the Pole: 'From now on you will obey me entirely, and , for a start, go and unload my car. Do you agree?' The Pole says nothing, and unloads the car, serves the SSman faithfully till the Red Army are a few miles away. Then he seizes the German's pistol, says, 'No' and shoots the bugger dead. Humanity has, with luck, plenty of time.
     
  17. Albert Di Salvo

    Albert Di Salvo New Member

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    It is much more likely that the Chinese immigrant would learn English, graduate from UC Berkeley, become a high powered lawyer, marry a white guy, and live happily ever after. :)
     
  18. lizarddust

    lizarddust Well-Known Member

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    In 2007 my wife and I spent some time in the Tibetan Autonomous Region in western Sichuan, about 160 kilometres from the Tibetan border, the Garze prefecture. The entire region is populated by about 85% Tibetans and was once part of the greater Tibet until it was subdivided.

    We were working on an education project where by Tibetan language was to be reintroduced into primary schools. The project was cancelled even before it got off the ground because its sensitive nature. We, and a team of six, five Tibetans and one Qiang, were asked to leave the region and made our way back to Chengdu, and eventually out of the country.

    We were stationed in Sertar (part of the Garze prefecture) on the Tibetan Plateau at 4,500 metres above sea level. At one time, Sertar county had the highest concentration of Buddhist clergy in China. In 2001, the Han Chinese marched into Sertar and surrounding district, kicked out nearly a thousand monks (some were never seen again) and burnt 300 temples to the ground, and flattened the town of Sertar. It was rebuilt in 2003-2004, with now a current population of around 5,000 people (90% Tibetans). The town was once a Tibetan spiritual centre, now it's typically Han Chinese. There is a temple on the outskirts of Sertar which is off limits to foreigners. Most of the businesses are owned by Han Chinese and unemployment for Tibetans is high.

    Six months before we arrived, the Chinese government awarded the prefecture 100,000 USD for infrastructure improvements. The district officials (Han) pocketed the money. One even during a district meeting, Tibetans stormed into the meeting, shot and killed nine officials. The Tibetans were never caught.

    A few months later at a horse racing event, a group of Tibetans took over a microphone and shouted "Free Tibet". They were arrest and from all accounts never seen again. Many Tibetans we spoke to believe their arrest was reprisal for the shootings at the district meeting.

    When we arrived in Sertar, it was September and many of the nomadic Tibetans were coming off the plains and settling around the townships and river valleys for the winter, as is done every year. The entire region was dotted with black felt tents. These are the Kampas Tibetans, the ones often depicted in National Geographic. Wild, nomadic and very nationalistic. One morning, the Chinese army drove in, rounded up the Tibetans, 'herded' them into the town square and disarmed them at gun point. Kampas Tibetan men often carry sabres and the women daggers. They also have rifles for vermin control.

    The Garze prefecture is where self immolation is a common thing with the Tibetans.

    Sertar.jpg
     
  19. s002wjh

    s002wjh Well-Known Member

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    gun is illegal in china, so does machette size knife. next time ask how many tibetan went to college, and if they speak fluent chinese. would you hire a non-english speaker, middle school lvl mexican for a skilled job in the state?
    the education is there, but many tibetan choose not to study chinese or goto college, instead pursue buddism, which is fine, but then they complain about economic opportunities.
    there are school taught tibetan language, but other academic subjects are not well versed. because tibet is part of china whether they like it or not, if they want to find GOOD/skill jobs, they need to be fluent at chinese and have a college degree, they are competing against other han college students, and chinese are know for their academic driven culture.
     
  20. reedak

    reedak Well-Known Member

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    1. First of all, the issue had nothing to do with the teaching of Tibetan language. Even if your project was about the teaching of the Chinese language, you would still be kicked out of China for the following reasons:

    (a) No country in the world would allow anyone, especially foreigners, to set up schools or involve in education without prior permission from the authorities.

    (b) In particular in a region which is a target of separatists operating from outside the country, the local officials would always stay on the safe side and reject any initiative from outsiders without any consideration, otherwise they would find their heads rolling on the ground.

    I don't think the Chinese authorities have any fear about the Tibetan language. What they fear is the content of the teaching, whether it is about separatism or sabotage to the country.

    Before you launched your project, you should have applied permission from the Central Government, particularly the education ministry. I don't think you would have any problem if they were convinced that your goal was solely in the teaching of the Tibetan language.

    2. Language in Tibet could become an issue largely due to the active disinformation of Tibetan separatists and their sympathisers around the world. In fact, many languages in the world have become extinct, and many are on the verge of extinction.

    For instance, the US is second only to India in having the highest number of endangered languages. The US has already lost more than a third of the indigenous languages that existed before European colonisation, and the remaining 192 are classed by Unesco as ranging between "unsafe" and "extinct".

    Some say that there may have been between 1,000- 2,000 native languages in North America before the arrival of the Europeans. Some experts say that at least half of those languages are now extinct. Others say that as many as 90% of those languages are extinct.

    If some Chinese volunteers launch an education project in an American Indian reservation, they would be kept under surveillance by the US authorities if not kicked out of the country.

    3. The following article shows that the Tibetan language is a living, spoken heritage in Tibet.

    Below are excerpts from the article headlined "Tibetan-English translator brings Bard to the Himalayas" at http://www.china.org.cn/china/tibet_democratic_reform/content_17497595.htm

    (Begin excerpts)
    W. Tailing, or Dreling Wangdo in Tibetan, fears his ailing heart and a cataract in his right eye might prevent him from translating Macbeth into Tibetan.

    Five years ago, at 70, he finished translating two of Shakespeare's other works, Hamlet and Romeo and Juliet. At 73, he began translating into English The Love Songs of the Sixth Dalai Lama Tsangyang Gyatso (1683-1706), which remain popular in Tibet to this day.

    Despite deteriorating health, he is also translating 1,001 Tibetan idioms into English.

    A legendary scholar, Tailing is proficient in Tibetan, English and Mandarin Chinese. He spent his teenage years in India and returned to Tibet in 1953 to work as a teacher, football player, government employee and eventually, a translator and writer....

    When Tailing set foot on home soil again, democratic reform had started and his family's land had been shared among former serfs.

    "In general, change is good. More schools were set up and more roads were built," he said.

    Tailing became a Tibetan-Chinese interpreter for officials from inland provinces and began to teach Tibetan language and accounting at the Xigaze Cadre Training School in 1964.

    Because of his family background, Tailing suffered tremendously during the Cultural Revolution (1966-1976).

    His grievances were redressed in 1978, after which he spent seven years leading the translation of Chinese textbooks into Tibetan at Tibet's regional education commission....

    He started with The Secret Tale of Tesur House, a novel based on life in old Tibet and his own study in India. He wrote the book in Tibetan in 1993 and in English in 1995.

    Out of love for Shakespeare, he decided to bring some of The Bard's masterpieces to Tibetan readers.

    He read all the major British novels from Geoffrey Chaucer to Charles Dickens before he finally translated Hamlet and Romeo and Juliet into Tibetan in 2004.

    Tailing received thanks from the Shakespeare Association of America and the BBC even asked him to narrate sections of Hamlet in Tibetan by phone.

    Tailing has just finished translating 74 love songs of the Sixth Dalai Lama Tsangyang Gyatso into English. The Pilgrims Book House is expected to publish the book soon.

    Meanwhile, he is translating Tibetan idioms, many of which involve wisdom, into English. "As the Tibetan idiom goes, 'short talks are good for understanding, short stirrups are good for riding'," he said.

    "Time is so limited. I should've retired earlier," he said. "There are so many good books that should be translated into Tibetan, and so many Tibetan works to share with our foreign readers." (End excerpts)

    Native Americans Fight to Save Endangered Languages
    http://www.livescience.com/18553-endangered-native-languages-survival-aaas.html

    Endangered Languages: Revitalizing Native American Languages
    http://www.culturalsurvival.org/programs/elc/program

    NATIVE AMERICAN LANGUAGES
    http://www.iroquoismuseum.org/ve15.htm

    Native American languages
    http://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/society/native-american-languages.html

    Saving Native American languages
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7964016.stm
     
  21. lizarddust

    lizarddust Well-Known Member

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    The reason the project never got off the ground was because the company never sort a local partner and supply the Chinese government, namely the Ministry of Education with a Memorandum of Understanding. The NGO, American, who'll remain nameless thought they'd do it on their own. We were assured before moving to China that all Is had been dotted and all Ts crossed.

    The Beijing Olympics were also coming the next year so that made things a bit difficult also.
     
  22. reedak

    reedak Well-Known Member

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    I suggest you try again with the following steps:

    1. First and foremost, seek permission from the Central Government, especially the top leaders.

    It's no use to approach the local officials as it is always safer for them to reject any foreign project in a sensitive region targeted by separatists from outside the country.

    If you could convince Xi Jinping about the sincerity of your goal, you have won half the battle.

    2. Provide the Ministry of Education with a Memorandum of Understanding.

    3. Seek a local partner.

    Nowadays most Chinese adopt the attitude of "xiang qian kan" (meaning "looking at money"). It is quite difficult to find a local partner especially if a project is non-profitable. Perhaps you can try forging partnership with Tibetan Village Project (TVP).

    Tibetan Village Project is a non-profit, non-political organization dedicated to promoting sustainable development while preserving cultural heritage of Tibet. TVP envisions thriving communities on the Tibetan plateau by promoting entrepreneurship as a vehicle to address social and environmental challenges.

    The road to the successful launching of your project will be long and arduous, particularly in a politically sensitive region. There will be red tape and probe into the background your company and your staff. Even after your project has been successfully launched in Tibet, it won't be surprising that you and your staff would be kept under constant surveillance because of China's distrust of foreigners in the politically sensitive region.

    However, you would have nothing to fear if you are sincere in teaching the Tibetan language without any ulterior motive.

    Xi Jinping Facebook
    https://www.facebook.com/ChinaXiJinping

    Tibetan Village Project
    http://www.tibetanvillageproject.org/

    Investing In Tibet's Future
    http://www.tibetanvillageproject.org/tvp/WhatWeDo/Education/EducationOverview.aspx

    Never assume, especially in working on a project or doing business in China.

    In China and any other countries, we have to ensure that all assurance is not oral but printed in black and white.
     
  23. Albert Di Salvo

    Albert Di Salvo New Member

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    The Tibetans will survive in the sense that their genes will continue to exist, but their culture will end up passing into history like that of the Plains Indians of the 19th century American west.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Cute........
     
  24. lizarddust

    lizarddust Well-Known Member

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    We were only employees, they actually offered my wife the gig. The project (and three others) went belly up because of the arrogance of our employer. Even before leaving Australia, they had assured us that all legalities were put in place. We were employed under false pretences.

    We did some research on the NGO before accepting employment. We found they have been doing great work with Tibetans in the TAR. BTW,, they are still doing work in the TAR today.

    We have long finished with China, we'd even think very hard about a holiday there.
     
  25. reedak

    reedak Well-Known Member

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    What work are they doing there?
     

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