What To Do To Stop Back-room Dealing In Politics

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Meta777, Jul 9, 2018.

  1. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    As usual, I place a lot of the blame for that sort of dysfunction on the Plurality systems we like to use.

    -Meta
     
  2. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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  3. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm sure that most people would disagree with those sentiments.

    -Meta
     
  4. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Source?

    -Meta
     
  5. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your argument in inherently flawed because right now people are very free to vote for a third party candidate, there are plenty of them every election but they choose not to.

    Now you say they don't have a choice but that simply isn't true. How do they not have a choice......the names of other parties nominees are right there on the ballot.

    Take the example of Ross Perot, a third party candidate who garnered about 9% of the total vote. I think that is very representative of the US. You claim that most people don't like the two party system yet when they clearly had the choice they voted mainly for the two parties.

    I'm sorry but history doesn't agree with you so what you want to do is to force people to vote outside of the two parties by changing the rules of the system. I believe its actually you that is setting the bar very low for voters by claiming they aren't smart enough to vote outside of the two party system when they are, they just choose not to.

    And lets face it, you cannot find a third party that doesn't have a platform almost exactly like the two major parties. If you do find one then they are so far outside the mainstream that they would never appeal to enough voters to ever win anyways.

    Take your Liebermans or Sanders.....both have identified as independents but both have almost the exact same beliefs as the democratic party, its why they consistently voted with them. Now look at the major parties themselves. You will see quite a bit of different opinions within each which represents what you are trying to go for. The republicans consist of your run of the mill standard republican, you also have conservatives, then you have the Tea Party people which focus on fiscal issues...there are a broad range of people to choose from.

    Same goes for the democrats, you have your blue dog democrats, your liberals, your socialists...….many, many different views contained within that party. The two major parties aren't static, they change and flow depending on what people want. We see the democratic party starting to lean left further than they did before because that is how the voters are moving the party, we see the republicans in a kind of civil war between the RINOs and those who are electing people like Trump because they want a change.

    What you are arguing for is already happening internally.
     
  6. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    As you can see by the number of people who have responded with ideas- complaints are a lot more common than solutions.

    "Back room deals" is just a term, that implies things done casually and skirting the real principles of good government and the objective of serving the nations best interest, trading that for short-term benefits or advantage to the politicians. This isn't treason or criminal, it is unethical practice that guts the objective of governing for the good of the people.

    Unfortunately, power corrupts easily- that is universally true. It is particularly true when the voters just shrug their shoulders, complain but fail to act. If there are no consequences, it will be seen as tacit approval. It will not only continue, but be seen as SOP or Standard Operating Procedure- everybody does it, and indeed they do.

    We can change this. The question is- will we?
     
  7. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    As a practical manner in business or government, during the creation and development of products or policies, etc. it is not beneficial to share each step of the way with the public. It's fine to survey the public but it's stupid to involve millions of people. What takes place in this process, whether in public or back rooms, should be ignored. What's important is the end result, the quality of the policy, whether or not Congress will approve it...
     
  8. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    In business we have the same process; create an idea, develop the idea, sell the idea. And except for sole-propritorships there can be lots of people involved in this process. The difference between business and government today is that business demands consensus that results in the completion of the goals, while government has little accountability meaning they can do nothing, kick the can down the road for years, or just totally screw up. A private business exercising this approach will fail in short order! The government is too big to fail and can print trillion$ to survive. Our problem is not back room deals...
     
  9. bricklayer

    bricklayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Government is the legal use of force. Politics are public relationships.

    The best way to take "back-room dealing" out of politics is to take government out of politics.

    Our biggest problem is that our public relationships are governed by the legal use of force.

    Get government out of politics and you will solve the problem addressed in the OP.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2018
  10. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    Finally, some words I can agree with you on, although probably from a totally opposite perspective.
    Perhaps a poll on HOW could the involvement and choices of voters be increased in ways that might result in issues/problems being solved more efficiently, effectively, and consensually.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
  11. Texan

    Texan Well-Known Member

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    Term limits.
     
  12. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    You say people are free to vote third party now? Are they really?
    One word...

    Spoilers!

    Perot being a prime example of how and why people are not truly free to vote third party under a Plurality system.

    No, you are wrong about this. A Ranked system does not force anyone to vote for anything.
    If people want to keep voting for democrats and republicans under a Ranked system, they can!
    All a Ranked system really does is give them the option to vote for someone else if they don't like democrats or republicans,
    without having to worry so much about things like spoilers/significantly increasing the chances that their least preferred option will win due to their supporting their most preferred option.

    This part of your post doesn't make any sense. No, a Ranked system doesn't set the bar lower. It encourages and gives voters the option to vote outside the two main parties. Again, they aren't forced to do so. They can still choose to vote for just democrats and or republicans if they want. If anything forces voters to do something, its the continual limiting of their options. Why make voters pick a lesser evil instead of what they really want? If we agree that voters are smart, then we shouldn't be limiting their options like that. Let them choose for themselves. I know that as a voter myself, that's certainly what I want.

    Irrelevant. Obviously there will be some overlap. If one goes with the notion that each of the main parties gets a little bit right, and a little bit wrong, then the ideal party would be one that takes a little bit from each of them (the right parts of course). As it is, such an ideal party if it were to is unlikely to win, regardless of its popularity, because the Plurality system unfairly favors incumbent parties due to previously mentioned spoiler effect.

    How can we know that without giving them a fair shot? You're just speculating here.
    I say change the system so that its fairer and allows voters to fully voice their preferences,
    and then let the chips fall where they may. Maybe you're right, and no third party comes to power,
    at a minimum though I fully expect that changing to a Ranked system would lead to candidates
    in the main two parties to suddenly become a lot more moderate. That alone would be a win.

    -Meta
     
  13. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    They can vote for third party now.

    NOTHING is preventing them from doing so. Vote Green Party, Socialist Party, Conservative Party, they are all usually on the ballot.

    You do not need to change the system you need to change their appeal to the populace.

    And frankly, although I respect you a lot, this is getting tiresome. What you want is for the minority to have power against the majority by rigging the system.

    If people wanted a third party they would vote them in, they don't...that is the majority speaking.

    That is our system and it works, its based on utilitarianism based on the construct created by Bentham and, by the way, put into practice in most of those "successful" nations in Europe that we are supposed to emulate.

    I would copy and paste the rest of your responses but I believe I covered them in this post.

    I look forward to your response.

    Respectfully
     
  14. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I do just have to comment on this.

    That is your opinion and yours alone.

    I for one want to see the parties, especially the republicans turn even harder right, I don't want them to go to the center and become moderate, that is wrong in my opinion.

    You are one voice with one vote but you don't speak for all of us.

    I also have one voice and one vote.

    And that is a right guaranteed to me by our constitution, verified by the supreme court, and defended by every brave soldier that has ever died defending our nation.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
  15. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Again, one word...

    Spoilers!

    I think you're wrong about that as well. The majority of the country are not extremists.
    The majority reside in the center politically speaking and tend to be much more moderate than those on the extreme ends of the spectrum and more moderate than those currently in congress. There's a graphic out there that actually illustrates this. I'll have to dig it up a bit latter.

    Currently though under our Plurality system the moderate central majority are forced to choose between either siding with one of the extremes, or not voting (and thereby not having their voice heard), or voting for a candidate which has no fair shot at winning due to the spoiler effect. That any voters are forced to make such an unfair choice speaks to why our system is in dire need of an update.

    Also, again, if people were really satisfied with the current state of things,
    we wouldn't be seeing things like this:

    Opinion of the Republican Party falls to all-time low
    Views of Democratic Party hit lowest mark in 25 years


    [​IMG]

    I would agree that the current system works, in the sense that it facilitates the peaceful transfer of power, but it does so poorly, and could work oh so much better, in such a way as to allow the people a greater voice, and results more accurately reflective of their preferences, if only we were to dump Plurality and institute a Ranked system. On top of that, the Plurality systems seem to be polarizing the country and the congress more and more over time. If that keeps up there's no telling just for how much longer that system will continue to work, especially if outside forces endeavor to exploit the divisions for their own gain.

    Also, regarding your comment about emulating European countries... it should be pointed out that several European countries (as well as several other countries) are already using various forms of Ranked voting. I think it makes sense to look towards those other countries for examples of things and learn from them, but we imo should not be content with just emulating them. We as our own sovereign nation ought to aspire to go beyond them and be even better.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked_voting#Use_by_polities

    -Meta
     
  16. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    You're right, like you, I am just one voice.
    Though I reckon that statistics like these do speak to the feelings of the country more broadly.

    Opinion of the Republican Party falls to all-time low
    Views of Democratic Party hit lowest mark in 25 years


    [​IMG]

    And now I wonder what other folks would say if you asked them instead whether they thought politicians needed to become more extreme or more moderate or just stay the same. I wonder if anyone has polled on that. If not, perhaps I should set up a vote to see what politicalforum members think... Of course... I'd be inclined to set it up as a Ranked vote... though I guess a Plurality vote for that question could work too if things were simplified...

    -Meta
     
  17. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So much to address here.

    First off I don't understand what your "spoilers" thing is and maybe its just because I'm stupid or something.

    If that means something I would appreciate it if you could dumb it down for me so I could respond.

    Now I agree that most of the nation is centrist but the point I think you are missing is that both parties include that centrist view to some degree. Neither the democrats nor republicans are as far off to the end of the spectrums as the media tells us they are. This is a major reason why third parties do not receive enough votes to be competitive.

    My views as a far right conservative are represented in the republican party as well as those who are more moderate, those who favor abortion or health care for all, they are represented also. Each major party is not dominated by specifics, they are governed by what we can call a general direction of belief. I'm sure you know how they both differ so I don't need to go into that.

    The point here is that there is nothing a third party has to offer that isn't already incorporated into the major parties outside of a specific issue, such as the Green Party pushing environmental issues or the socialist party pushing economic issues. Even with that being said, both of those specific issues can be found somewhere within the two major parties.

    To exemplify this point even further we can look at specific groups within the parties such as the Tea Party or the Blue dog democrats. They both rise or fall based on their popularity at the moment and this is a common occurrence and which is why the two parties function so well in their respective beliefs. They are not static but change and flow based on that "general direction" I mentioned before. Sometimes they go further extreme then at other times they become more moderate, they reflect the current mood of the American voter.

    So the voters have a choice already, you, in my opinion, want to arbitrarily force a choice on the American people that they don't need. Yes you are correct in saying that they can still vote for the two major parties but they should be changing the parties from within, by adding in more appealing options you are simply convoluting an already complicated system.

    As for your comment regarding European nations I will say this, and I've stated it before.

    We are not Europe and you cannot compare us to them. In Europe you have a clashing of many different cultures that we don't experience to the same degree here. People in America tend to become Americanized, meaning they accept our culture whereas in Europe they tend to hold on to their original culture far longer, generational even. As such, they require a different system to have their views better represented.

    Their culture is different, their history is different, the people's experiences are different.

    Respectfully
     
  18. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I could be wrong here since I am going from memory but I don't believe that congressional approval ratings have ever been considered a good indicator or the American populace.

    They are pretty much always performing below 50% even in the best of times.

    While it is at an extreme low we also need to consider that nowadays we have the internet and social media where things are posted and commented on instantly which may affect views stronger then simply reading information weekly from your newspaper subscription.

    Honestly, I don't expect their numbers to ever improve.
     
  19. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Aint that the truth!

    I think we as a society really need to try and practice a whole lot more on coming up with solutions.
    Only complaining about things but then just stopping short there is why cans get kicked and problems pile up.

    Agreed!

    Oh and btw, your Congressional Oversight Panel idea just won the Ranked Vote that I set up.
    Though there weren't that many votes. I think that if there had been more votes,
    your idea probably still would have won, only by a larger margin.

    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...ing-in-politics.538935/page-2#post-1069502891

    -Meta
     
    spiritgide likes this.
  20. YourBrainIsGod

    YourBrainIsGod Well-Known Member

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    People care, they are just apathetic to not being able to do anything about it. Presidential races are the platform to address this issue, look at the runners that grew immensely in popularity. Sanders and Trump both resonated with people in large part because of their rhetoric against the corruption. When people find a leader that speaks about their worries they find the courage to stand up against that almighty power. We only need one that is honest about ending it. Quickest way to flip the apple cart over in my opinion. Otherwise societies often have to face much hardship before they become heavily politically involved.
     
  21. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We hope you are wrong.

    We fear you are right.

    A nation will be no stronger than the sum of it's people, and will tolerate no leadership that asks them to rise above themselves for the good of it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
  22. Moonglow

    Moonglow Well-Known Member

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    Do like China and have all politicians that are caught cheating, bribery and unjust office operations they take them out back and pop a cap in dat head..
     
  23. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    What To Do To Stop Back-room Dealing In Politics

    Engineer a mass human extinction.
     
  24. Reality

    Reality Well-Known Member

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    Really easy actually.

    2 measures must be put in place:
    1) Politicians agree, on pain of death, to wear body cameras and mics recording their every second until they have been out of office for 5 years.
    2) Politicians agree to leverage their personal assets, their liberty, and their lives, while in office. Any misconduct while in office is punished by death or imprisonment and garnishment of all assets. All of them. Not a fine. All of it.

    Then you have a method of enforcement and prevention in 1, and a remedy for punishment that hangs like the sword of Damocles over their heads.

    You're welcome.
     

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