What Truthers Believe

Discussion in '9/11' started by Shinebox, May 4, 2018.

  1. Shinebox

    Shinebox Well-Known Member

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    reflection of what? ... why would the plane fire a missile from your imaginary pods Scott? ... once again, Debbies desk? ... you sound foolish ...
     
  2. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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    http://www.whale.to/m/disin.html
    (excerpt)
    -----------------------------
    19. Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs. This is perhaps a variant of the 'play dumb' rule. Regardless of what material may be presented by an opponent in public forums, claim the material irrelevant and demand proof that is impossible for the opponent to come by (it may exist, but not be at his disposal, or it may be something which is known to be safely destroyed or withheld, such as a murder weapon.) In order to completely avoid discussing issues, it may be required that you to categorically deny and be critical of media or books as valid sources, deny that witnesses are acceptable, or even deny that statements made by government or other authorities have any meaning or relevance.
    -----------------------------


    This is a classic tactic that paid sophists use.
     
    Bob0627 likes this.
  3. Shinebox

    Shinebox Well-Known Member

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    who is paying me Scott?? ..
     
  4. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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    The people you work for, who are probably a public-relations agency hired by the government. Your tactics give you away.
     
  5. Shinebox

    Shinebox Well-Known Member

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    just wow ...
     
  6. Bob0627

    Bob0627 Well-Known Member

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    This is actually #1, not what you posted:

    1. The Bush administration is directly responsible for the wholesale destruction of 9/11 evidence, in violation of federal and local law, thus hampering/corrupting any investigation.

    But it is true, Bush as the Chief Executive has the ultimate responsibility to insure that federal crimes are legitimately investigated. Therefore, for any federal investigation of a crime especially of the nature of 9/11 he also has the ultimate responsibility to insure that ALL evidence is preserved in order to conduct a legitimate federal investigation.

    And now you want me to show you the above for which the wholesale destruction of 9/11 evidence is documented history regardless of your phony requests for "paper trail" and "chain of events". Like you're trying to deny that 9/11 evidence was deliberately destroyed. Try Google, not that you have any real interest:

    https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=GB3nW_TDE5Gl_Qb4mKHYDA&q=destruction+of+9/11+evidence&btnK=Google+Search&oq=destruction+of+9/11+evidence&gs_l=psy-ab.3...1713.9173..9475...0.0..1.296.4915.2j16j10....2..0....1..gws-wiz.......0j0i131j0i22i30j33i22i29i30.Ey1-_DdD3No

    And how in **** does your demand support your claim that I'm spreading lies?

    And this is further idiotic nonsense that does nothing to support your false claim:

    Furthermore, I listed 29 facts surrounding the 9/11 Commission and their report and so far, you haven't been able to show how even one is a lie. You made the claim, you have the burden of proof that I spread lies.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2018
  7. yasureoktoo

    yasureoktoo Banned

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  8. Shinebox

    Shinebox Well-Known Member

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    from your own link and a truther site at that ... https://www.ae911truth.org/evidence...f-physical-evidence-at-the-world-trade-center no mention of the Bush Admin ... sounds to me like it was New York city/state and private contractors ... probably trying to make a few quick bucks off scrap metal ...

    you try to make it sound like Bush and Co "ordered" the destruction of WTC waste ... you're so full of **** with your out of context nonsense ... you twist words and constantly run with psychobabble ... you're almost as wacky as Eleuthera ...
     
  9. Bob0627

    Bob0627 Well-Known Member

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    Nothing you posted changes anything about #1, Mr. Apologist and I didn't make anything "sound like" anything other than what I posted Mr. Twist & Shout. The Bush administration was fully responsible as stated no matter what entity destroyed the evidence. In fact, the link YOU provided acknowledges that the destruction of evidence was widely known yet no one in the Bush administration intervened to stop the destruction of evidence from continuing at a rapid pace.

    You have yet to show how I'm spreading lies and taking anything out of context. In fact, it's you who's trying to take what I posted out of context.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018
  10. yasureoktoo

    yasureoktoo Banned

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    For one, you keep posting the same BS. about Hani's flying abilities.

    Even though you know he is a licensed commercial pilot.

    But don't worry, you're not spreading lies, people just don't believe you.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018
  11. Shinebox

    Shinebox Well-Known Member

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    what kind of legitimate investigation Bob? ... what would you and fellow truthers like to have all those piles of twisted steel "investigated" for? ... explosives? ... find the exact pieces of metal and glass fragments where that mysterious flash occurred? ...

    c'mon Bob ... you wouldn't be satisfied until every little possibility/theory ie nukes and energy beams was "thoroughly investigated" ...

    have you ever bothered to comprehend the amount of hard evidence that it pretty much happened the way it was reported? ...
     
  12. Shinebox

    Shinebox Well-Known Member

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    so you're an expert in lighting analysis now? ... tell me Scott ... was that flash 2D or 3D? ...
     
  13. Bob0627

    Bob0627 Well-Known Member

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    All that dancing and still nothing to support your claim that I'm spreading lies and that all (or any of) those facts are out of context. You tried with #1 and failed. You have 28 more to choose from to try to support your false accusation:

    1. The Bush administration is directly responsible for the wholesale destruction of 9/11 evidence, in violation of federal and local law, thus hampering/corrupting any investigation.
    2. The Bush administration did not want to investigate 9/11, in fact they (or more specifically Cheney) asked Sen. Tom Daschle not to investigate 9/11 on several occasions.
    3. The Bush administration reluctantly yielded to investigating 9/11 due to pressure from the 9/11 families, specifically the Jersey Girls but wanted the investigation to only focus on intelligence failures.
    4. The Bush administration appointed Henry Kissinger as the chairman of the 9/11 Commission who was subsequently forced to resign due to conflicts of interest.
    5. The Bush administration stocked the 9/11 Commission with cronies, especially Philip Zelikow.
    6. All members of the 9/11 Commission had conflicts of interest and were covering for someone.
    7. The 9/11 Commission cut a deal with the Bush administration essentially allowing them to dictate who on the 9/11 Commission could see what evidence and also limited the evidence the 9/11 Commission had access to.
    8. According to the 9/11 Commission, there are 570 cubic feet of textual records, a large percentage of it classified, presumably inaccessible to the 9/11 Commission itself (see #7).
    9. Sen. Max Cleland resigned as a result of #7, labeling the 9/11 investigation a scam and obstruction.
    10. The 9/11 families or more specifically the Family Steering Committee sent over 400 questions to the 9/11 Commission and the vast majority of the questions were either unanswered or insufficiently answered.
    11. Philip Zelikow created an outline of the 9/11 Commission Report prior to the first meeting of the 9/11 Commission.
    12. Philip Zelikow admitted that most if not all of the 9/11 Commission Report relied on 3rd party relayed torture testimony.
    13. The source of over 25% of the Commission Report's footnotes is 3rd party relayed torture testimony.
    14. The 9/11 Commission were lied to by the CIA who told them they gave them everything they asked for but withheld torture tapes which they never revealed their existence to the 9/11 Commission.
    15. The torture tapes were deliberately destroyed by the CIA despite a federal court order to preserve them.
    16. The Senate Intelligence Committee on Torture report claims that the CIA's torture methods yielded NO USEFUL INTELLIGENCE (see #12 and #13).
    17. The FBI lied to the 9/11 Commission (and Congress) when they told them they gave them everything. They were discovered a decade later to be holding over 80,000 pages of documents from their PENTBBOM "investigation" that they never revealed existed.
    18. NORAD and other key Pentagon officials told the 9/11 Commission different stories that were in conflict with each other or outright lies.
    19. The 9/11 Commission agreed to interview Bush and Cheney together unsworn and unrecorded.
    20. There is no evidence that the 9/11 Commission conducted any criminal/scientific/forensic investigation in accordance with universally accepted standards appropriate for such an investigation. Especially within the vast scope required by a major historical event such as 9/11. Much of the contents of the 9/11 Commission Report is unvetted and/or unsupported by legitimate evidence (any evidence obtained via the use of torture is illegitimate/unreliable - see #16).
    21. The 9/11 Commission claimed in their report that "their aim has not been to assign individual blame", thus making a mockery of the "investigation".
    22. Eyewitnesses who were to testify to the 9/11 Commission were coached by Soviet style government "minders" prior to their testimonies, thus tampering with, biasing and corrupting the "investigation".
    23. Many potential crucial eyewitnesses were never interviewed by the 9/11 Commission. Potential whistleblowers were not granted immunity and therefore many did not testify as a result.
    24. Some key eyewitness testimonies were excluded from the 9/11 Commission Report.
    25. The 9/11 Commission failed to investigate key events and issues, such as the destruction of WTC7 (unmentioned) and the financing of 9/11, deeming it of "little practical significance" (in direct contradiction to all criminal investigation standards).
    26. The 9/11 Commission co-chairs admitted they were set up to fail, starved of funds, denied access to the truth, misled by senior officials in the Pentagon and the FAA, did not examine key evidence, claimed the report was incomplete and flawed and that many questions remain unanswered.
    27. Philip Zelikow had complete control over the final edit of the 9/11 Commission Report and was responsible for keeping the classified 28 pages from the 9/11 Commission. Zelikow fired an aide who wanted to bring the 28 pages to the attention of the 9/11 Commission.
    28. The published version of the 9/11 Commission Report in general is similar to the official 9/11 conspiracy theory disseminated as fact by the Bush administration prior to the establishment of the 9/11 Commission.
    29. The 9/11 Commission Report was severely criticized by many, especially the Jersey Girls, who were responsible for pressuring the Bush administration for an investigation. "we knew it was a farce, we wanted their words, their lies down on paper" - Patty Casazza.

    And all or any of these which you haven't even touched on:

    All assumptions below, which were used in the NIST WTC7 report, have been shown to be erroneous, and correction of these assumptions invalidate the report's conclusions.

    1. A girder bearing seat width of 12 inches not 11 inches at column 79 would prevent girder walk off.
    2. The omitted stiffeners on girder A2001 at column 79 would have prevented the flange from folding and eliminated any chance of walk off.
    3. The thermally expanded girder A2001 could not move past the column 79 side plate.
    4. There were shear studs on girder A2001 and this would cause the beams to buckle before pushing the girder off its seat.
    5. All west and south girder connections to column 79 were not broken down to the 6th floor.
    6. A northeast corner floor failure could not cascade down eight floors so there is not enough energy to break through the girder connection on the next floor down.
    7. There were lateral support beams framing G3005 and they would have prevented it from buckling.
    8. Beam and girder notching to simulate their buckling due to the fire in the model is not consistent with the time phased weakening fire would produce.
    9. Evidence of temperatures high enough to melt steel as documented by FEMA was ignored.
    10. The NIST model shows radical deformation of the upper exterior as the east side interior collapses but this is not observed in actual footage of the video collapse.
    11. A simultaneous free fall of all four corners of the roofline does have implications.

    Summary of problems with the NIST WTC Tower Report

    1. The claim that the upper part of the towers crushed the lower part of the towers violates the laws of conservation of momentum and the law that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. As shown by the measured smooth uninterrupted descent of the upper portion of the North Tower.
    2. NIST claims that the floor trusses in the aircraft impact zone push outward on the perimeter columns with a force of about 80 KIPS before starting to sag and pull the columns inward to cause the building to collapse. Yet there is no evidence to support this claim. Extensive photos and videos of the towers show no outward bowing of the perimeter columns at any time during the fires before the collapse.
    3. NIST imposed unrealistic artificial 5 KIP forces on each floor truss to column connection over the 5 stories of the damage zone on the south face of the North Tower in order to make their collapse initiation model work. This amounts to a lateral force of about 750 KIPS applied artificially to that face of the building which cannot be justified by any rationale.
    4. NIST does not investigate or explain the global collapse which occurred after the collapse initiation was supposedly initiated by the column failures in the impact zone. NIST simply states, “global collapse ensued”.
    5. The NIST collapse sequence is initiated by the failure of the floor trusses in the impact zone and subsequent pulling in of the perimeter column. But the sequence ignores the fact that the core columns failed first, as evidenced by the video of the North Tower collapse showing that the antenna and hat truss resting on the core column began their descent well before the outer perimeter of the building began to fall. This fact invalidates the NIST collapse initiation theory.
    6. The NIST report fails to provide any information suggesting that the load capacity of the core and perimeter columns was exceeded at any time during the collapse sequence. NIST ignored the fact that the factor of safety of 3 in the core columns and 5 in the perimeter columns would have prevented the failure mechanism that is theorized in their collapse initiation model.
    7. The NIST global collapse theory depends upon the ASCE-published progressive collapse theory by Zdenek Bazant. His theory has been shown to have erroneous input data rendering it non-viable as an explanation for the observed behavior of the vertical propagation. ASCE refuses to acknowledge the errors in the input data of Bazant’s theory.



    Have you bothered to comprehend the amount of overwhelming evidence (as shown above) that proves the OCT is a massive criminal fraud?
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
  14. Shinebox

    Shinebox Well-Known Member

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    #1 is still a lie ... but thanks for playing Bob ... I have already told you I will move on to #2 when you can prove #1 correct ... please show me the statutes, knowledge or how a legit investigation was not conducted ... troofers do not get to decide what a legitimate investigation is ...

    btw ... where did you get your NIST facts from? ...
     
  15. Bob0627

    Bob0627 Well-Known Member

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    When you consider that the 9/11 "investigations" were "adequate" despite the overwhelming facts proving they were criminal frauds and you bought the conclusions as fact despite that you admit the 9/11 Commission and their report they were strictly CYA and that NIST were hacks, you made your case that you are contradicting yourself and have no standing to determine what is truth and what is a lie. In other words, you are utterly clueless and thoroughly confused.

    I don't play games, that's for immature fools such as those who declare 9/11 is a "hobby".

    I don't care what you do or don't do, #1 (and all 29) is FACT regardless of your confusion. Letting the Bush administration (the Executive branch of the US government responsible for investigations of federal crimes) off the hook for their failure to prevent the destruction of evidence in a massive federal crime such as 9/11 despite their full knowledge is complicity to the 9/11 crimes committed by the Bush administration.

    The "statutes" is the Constitution and the knowledge, among many other facts, is the list you quoted blind one, right in front of your face.

    There is no such thing as a "troofer". What determines the legitimacy of a forensic criminal investigation is, among many things, following all universally accepted protocols of a forensic criminal investigation and the scientific method to the best of the ability of the investigators. Any failure to conduct an investigation in such a manner makes it illegitimate even if it's not deliberate. Any attempt to knowingly circumvent such protocols and/or fabricate data or failure to account for ALL the data available makes it a criminal fraud for which there are appropriate federal statutes dealing with such fraud.

    Many, many well documented sources, including but not limited to the NIST reports and quotes from NIST lead engineers and spokesmen Shyam Sunder and John Gross. Many of these can be found in this thread:

    http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/the-nist-9-11-scam-exposed-in-all-its-glory.458597/

    But you knew that of course. And thanks for your post, it's a typical example of how I use posters such as yourself to expose the OCT for what it is, a FRAUD.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
  16. Gamolon

    Gamolon Well-Known Member

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    :roflol:

    That "flash reflection" was already present in previous frames!
    reflection.PNG

    reflection2.PNG

    reflection3.PNG
     
  17. Gamolon

    Gamolon Well-Known Member

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    How come the straight line where the plane disappears doesn't match up with where you think the nose is entering the building? the line matches where the center of the flash is?
    impactlocation2.png
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2018
  18. Gamolon

    Gamolon Well-Known Member

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    Bobby,

    Can you quote where is was stated that the flange folded and was the cause of the failure?

    Thanks.
     
  19. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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    The wing hasn't arrived yet in the top picture. Evidently, the wing wasn't lined up perfectly. The plane was coming in at an angle.

    It's traveling down the side of the plane. It originated at the alleged extra piece of equipment on the bottom of the plane. It's probably the hot stuff that propelled the projectile, whatever it was, into the building.

    Freeze this video at the 7:48 time mark.


    Do fast double clicks to see it frame by frame. When the light that seems to be traveling down the side of the plane contacts the side of the building, its reflection is next to it on the side of the plane.

    Freeze it at the 7:49 time mark where the flash is on the building. It's quite obvious that the nose is to the left of the flash and is inside the building. I don't know how anyone could say that flash is in line with the nose with a straight face. You don't even believe it yourself.
     
  20. Gamolon

    Gamolon Well-Known Member

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    It's easy. You're just wrong as has been explained countless times.
     
  21. Bob0627

    Bob0627 Well-Known Member

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    Can you answer my questions hypocrite? Thanks.

     
  22. Gamolon

    Gamolon Well-Known Member

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    Delete
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2018

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