What would we be (or do) without pain and suffering?

Without cold and dark, we would not have learned to make clothing or fire. If not for predators and invaders, we would not have formed the groups in which we shared ideas, art and built language and societies. Without the need to overcome pain and suffering, we would have created nothing.

Those of you bitching endlessly about the cruelty of a God that would inflict hardship upon his creations- what do you think humans would be like without adversity?

 

Monkeys and apes also face adversity but they have yet to create art, languages, and societies. Maybe they should face more severe hardships?

 

So why don't I go over and burn your house down to build you up with more of that adversity you cherish? Some suffering builds you up and is more likely training but a lot of suffering does far more harm than good.

 

I dunno, why dont you? A question relevent to the discussion is- would it be cruel for God to allow you to do it?

 

Maybe they werent created in the image of The Creator. Why is it that humans are the only creatures known to build creatively? Of the possible reasons for this, it seems likely to me that its because we posess something other creatures do not that manifests creativity.

 

Maybe it will make more sense from this perspective. Given two men- one is a 'trust fund baby' with a guarranteed income for life that provides for his every need regardless of his activity or values, the other is born into poverty and is provided the bare necessities for survival until maturity, at which point he is responsible for providing even those for himself.

Which one is more likely to become a well-rounded, productive, moral/ethical member of society? Which one is more likely to become content with himself and his existance?

I posit that the one who MUST work (or create) is FAR more likely to become both. Agree or disagree?

 

The material circumstances of their upbringing have no bearing on their character as adults. I know some kids who were spoiled beyond imagining - the quintessential "little king" of rich families with a single child - yet they have an amazing work ethic, are good, clean-living, productive and respectful young adults. I also know some kids who grew up in poverty and are absolute wastrels as adults.

Protecting kids from hardship also has no negative bearing on character, just as exposing kids to hardship doesn't equate to positive character development.

The ONLY way to produce adults with good character, is to be of good character yourself. Nothing else comes close to impacting kids in the way that parental behaviour does.

 

We are products of a HIGHLY competive ecosystem where all complex life's survival requires consumption of other forms of life.
If there was no adversity, sapience would never have evolved and we wouldn't be here.

I don't bitch about a cruel god because I don't believe in any god. so when seeing how uncaring the universe the whole "god is love" crap tends to wear thin as one of them go to bumpersticker of the faithful.

 

Its ALL about values.

 

Parental behavior is certainly important, but its not as 'defining' as you claim. Its not uncommon for children to grow up in the 'care' of terrible or totally absent parents or even to raise themselves on the street, yet become 'decent human' adults, and I know too many families (as I imagine many of us do) with wonderful parents who raised children that strayed to an astonishing degree.

Lets assume, for the purposes of my 'rich man, poor man' scenario that both were raised without parents- the rich one by nannys and butlers who merely sought to keep the child alive, the poor one in foster care by fosters that were mostly in it for the money.

Would that change your answer?

 

Why do you think humans are the only ones to have evolved creativity?

 

The two most important factors in a person's morality are their upbringing and their natural inclinations. As such, I have no particular moral expectations of either the trust fund kid or the hard knock kid.

As for productivity, which is entirely separate from morality, I'd agree that the hard knock kid is more likely to learn that life is unfair, that a lot of time and energy must be put into mere survival, and that even then prosperity is far from assured. And unless he's very lucky and very gifted, he's probably not going to be curing cancer when he grows up.

Wheras the trust fund kid is more likely to live on the fruits of his forebears' labors, and to have a more naive view of life. He's well-off, but assuming he's not completely apathetic about others he prefers to believe that the suffering that so many must endure has some sort of purpose, some redemptive quality. In fact I wouldn't be surprised at all to hear him make the very case you're making -- ignorant of the realities of those who don't have access to endless opportunities, to healthcare every time he gets ill, to quality housing wherever is convenient to him, to a working car to take him wherever he needs to drive, and so on, you get the idea.

Ignorant of life's more harsh realities, I wouldn't be surprised at all to hear him say that "Yeah my god creates suffering, but suffering makes us stronger. I mean, if he had made us with fur I wouldn't be wearing this amazing Louis Vuitton jacket! And look at me, I had to suffer through a seriously nasty flu this year...but all the nausea and vomiting really helped my six-pack! Really, I don't know why people complain about adversity, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger."

Of course I'd disagree with his ivory-tower philosophy on suffering and adversity. As we speak I sit in a hospital room due to a genetic defect I was born with, which causes all kinds of health problems. The best thing about my genetic defect is that it's made me good at smiling while in pain, even sometimes when I look forward to the sweet release of death. And occasionally that talent comes in handy, but I don't see how it enriches humanity. I certainly lose a thousand times the productivity maintaining my health than I gain by being good at smiling. So my adversity is a net negative for both myself and society, and someday...someday, when I run out of insurance coverage, when I run out of treatments, when nothing I can do does any good anymore, it will kill me long before my time.

So to answer your original question: An all-powerful and all-knowing god could have created the world in an infinity of ways, and I think that a way without adversity or suffering -- or at least, without the kind that kills and maims -- would have been much happier, more productive, and more fulfilling for everyone.

 

I think it would be insensitive of me to use your heartbreaking situation as an example in a philosophical debate. I wont. Ill leave it at- I respect your attitude and hope things somehow improve for you.

 

What would we be (or do) without pain and suffering?

Who knows? But wouldn't it be fun finding out ?

 

More to the point why do you believe that fallacy?

Termite mounds are proportionally taller than any skyscraper mankind has ever built. It is also naturally air conditioned without burning any fossil fuels. What exactly did mankind achieve with his own spit and some mud?

http://www.iflscience.com/plants-an...ame-to-build-the-worlds-greatest-skyscrapers/

https://www.wired.com/2015/11/building-skyscrapers-like-termite-mounds-could-save-energy/

That is but one example where other living creatures are creative. The Great Barrier Reef is the largest structure on earth and it was built by living creatures, none of which were mankind.

Ants can navigate across shifting sand dunes using the position of the sun while mankind would get lost and die.

When it comes to "evolving creativity" mankind is not the only creature on the planet that has come up with creative solutions.

Before you jump on some other bandwagon like using tools I suggest that you do some research.

About the only area in which mankind has differentiated himself from the rest of the natural world is communications. I would not recommend that being your choice either because your deity really sucks at communicating his message to mankind.

 

I said sapience not creativity. There are plenty of examples of limited creative abstract problem solving in animals - crows being an excellent example.

 

An intelligent, omnipotent creator could have accomplished the same thing without suffering.

 

Termite mounds are the functional result of necessity, a 'solution' pre-programmed in the instincts of the termite. They cannot choose to not build the mound, nor choose to build it in any other fashion than they do, nor choose to build something else. There is no 'art' in it, no extras. It is not the product of creativity.

 

Can you provide an example of a crow building something that isnt necessary for its survival or the survival of its progeny? Do crows make art?

 

You know they didn't develop the brain for that.

The god or ETs or whatever they are, genetically engineered us, and left the chimps alone.

So the theory of evolution is wrong when it comes to homo sapiens.

 

I said creative problem solving.

 

I agree.

Art is a result of sapience. We are the only sapient creature. therefore only we have art.

Interestingly there has just been a paper published claiming that cetaceans have complex cultural behaviors.

http://www.newsweek.com/our-dolphin...man-cultures-thanks-their-giant-brains-685845

 

Do you always invent your own definitions of words, or is it just when someone completely and utterly demolishes your flawed arguments?

 

Thank you for your consideration, but I wouldn't ask you to withhold your beliefs because of my illness. I respect the attitude you've expressed in the past, that we must look toward growth and the future as individuals, as a culture, and as a species. All I ask is that you remember that some of us are given more than we can handle -- my problems are far from the worst the world has to offer -- and that sometimes adversity and suffering are simply an unyielding monster which destroys those unlucky enough to be in its way.

 

I think that this is a truly insightful idea.

When we finally get to that place where we recognize that our greatest enemy is within us.... then the battle goes up to a whole other level entirely.