Wheel Out the Skripal Story Again

Whether they do or do not, to claim that this is a false flag perpetrated by them is unfounded and unreasonable. At best, an extraordinary claim in need of extraordinary evidence.

 

It's amusing how so many people throughout history have thought parroting conventional wisdom to be "sane and sensible". I have no doubt the people who worshiped pharaohs as gods thought of themselves as "sane and sensible" as well. For thousands of years, the "sane and sensible" position throughout all of civilization was to support the institution of monarchy. All the "experts" and "authorities" assured the masses that being ruled over by a dictatorship was quite "sane and sensible" I'm sure. Centuries from now, the sentiment you've expressed in this post will be seen in a similar light. You are complete denial of reality. You absolutely refuse to see how corrupt and criminal western governments are. Perhaps you are part of the government, perhaps your living depends on government programs, or perhaps you are just the victim of government propaganda. Or perhaps it is a combination of all three.

 

No, it's not unreasonable. Western governments are extremely corrupt and lie constantly, especially when it comes to demonizing their geopolitical rivals. Western governments have proven they will say and do almost anything in order to promote their imperialist agenda.

 

After the "weapons of mass destruction" lie, I thought people would wise up and stop believing whatever the "intelligence community" told them. Clearly, I was wrong. People are just as dumb and as gullible as they ever were, if not more so.

 

Says you. Our governments aren't that bad.

A mistake, not a lie. But see, you're being overly cynical. You're buying into a particular narrative of good and evil, and of course into the conspiracy theorist's mindset of being a step above all the common sheeple around you, mistaking your own cynicism and paranoia for wisdom.

 

Says mountains of facts and historical evidence. The world is still reeling from the negative effects of the US/UK invasion and occupation of Iraq, for example. An invasion and occupation that was based on outrageous lies and hysteria.

LOL

They've killed millions of innocent people in dozens of imperialist wars, imprisoned millions of nonviolent drug offenders, defrauded working people of trillions of dollars, erected a mass spying apparatus in total secrecy... you have to be completely blind not to see just how corrupt and criminal these institutions have become. And by the way, they are not really "our" governments. They belong to richest and most powerful in society.

They presented their claim as a fact when they had no idea if it was actually true. That is a lie. They also used sly propaganda techniques to connect the terrorist attack on 9/11 with Iraq's nonexistent "weapons of mass destruction". That is another lie. The US government lied to the entire world and then proceeded to wantonly and criminally destroy an entire country. It is one of the most infamous crimes in history.

How ironic, since you are the one exercising nonstop cynicism and paranoia towards the Russian government. You will believe just about any bad thing said about the Russian government even when there is zero proof to support the allegation. Meanwhile, you are in complete denial of the actual, provable crimes and lies committed by western governments. You are so wrapped up in the contradictions of government propaganda that you cannot remain logically consistent for more than two seconds at a time.

 

Did you say that about the Skripal case?

 

A Russian poison used against a Russian citizen abroad with independent Swiss laboratory analysis to back that up certainly seems like evidence to me. Far more than "zero proof to support the allegation." Again, you're buying into a narrative that vilifies your own government in favor of a foreign one. Why? You're taking the easy way out and avoiding having to think about these matters in any depth, dismissing everything you're told in favor of your silly anti-western narrative. This is why you keep trying to dredge up Iraq and 9/11 when it has absolutely nothing to do with this situation. No matter how you feel about how our government handled Iraq, it just is not relevant to Russia's assassination attempts. A past US administration making a mess of Iraq does not mean that the UK government today is trying a "false flag" poisoning of Russian and UK citizens in the UK. Can you not even discuss that without launching into diatribes and silly generalizations and conspiracy theories about western governments? If not, why are you even attempting to comment on this story? You clearly have nothing to contribute to the discussion when all you can do is cry that western governments aren't to be trusted because, in your opinion, they lied, lied, lied about 9/11 and made a mess of Iraq.

 

Well you seem to have made up your mind that in no way could Russia be responsible. If I read this wrong then I apologise, but you seem to be going along with all of the conspiracy theorists.

As for direct parallels you don’t think might be some connection between the two events or do you think this is simply a second atempt at framing the Russian government.

I’d like to know what you think the government were trying to spin since you see to be agreeing with everyone else spinning a conspiracy theory, and what the proper responses should have been.

Personally I wouldn’t discount simple incompetence along with mild panic on the use of a nerve agent on UK soil.

 

As I suspected, you simply ignored all the facts, evidence, and logic I provided in support of my position and repeated your sheepish talking points. You refuse to assess the motives and past behavior of the US and UK governments because it undermines the credibility of the anti-Russian narrative you spew forth each and every day. But no amount of evasiveness on your part will change the fact that the US and UK governments are full of liars and aggressive imperialists.

 

It all makes me wonder what kind of evidence would ever change the mind of some of these deniers of the obvious and already proven. We have a lot of Putin's Advocates on this board.

 

You've provided no such thing, and here you are demonstrating exactly what I mentioned earlier - your personal need to feel that you're above the rest of us "sheep" with your silly narrative.

 

A lie. I made my case in post #56 and you didn't rebut one word of it because it's all true. The US and UK governments have a provable history of lying and aggression. Any accusation they make against Russia should be presumed false until proven otherwise with compelling evidence.

Or maybe you have a personal need to conform and obey, which is why you uncritically regurgitate government talking points all the time.

 

You haven't proven anything except your willingness to believe whatever the government tells you.

 

More poppycock, of course. How compelling would you like the evidence to be in this case? So far you don't seem particularly objective about the situation. I would be willing to consider any evidence against the UK government, of course, but what do we have so far? Nothing. Just Russia's denials, and they always deny wrongdoing, and people like you always accept these denials unquestioningly for no better reason than a your personal opinions about the honesty of western governments, based in turn on internet propaganda and lies, and an obvious chip on your shoulder.

Our government did not even lie about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Even government officials can make mistakes, and be led by a moron such as George W. Bush into doing something incredibly stupid and ultimately destructive, however well intentioned. And yes, our efforts in Iraq were well intentioned.

 

That's mighty big of you to consider any evidence against the UK government, especially considering that you swallow hook, line and sinker any baseless allegations against Russia.

As of now, what we have are 2 cases of poisoning by the ultra-deadly novochok, only nobody died (excepting Skripal's cat and hamsters, which absolutely can be blamed on the UK). The only apparent linkage at this stage is that they both occurred just a few miles from the UK chemical lab at Porton Down.

 

The evidence pointing to Russian involvement in the novichuk case is circumstantial, but strong.

If just a few random individuals had fallen victim to this Russian-derived agent, there would be no reason to blame Russia. Yes, Putin is evil evil evil, but he doesn't have any motive to poison random UK heroin addicts. (Some citizens of the UK who have to put up this type of person might, but that's a different story.) Any competent student of chemistry who does a bit of searching, can learn how to make it.

However.... Skripal was a traitor. (Note that he did not start spying against a Communist government, but against democratic post-Communist Russia, in the mid-90s. He's no hero.)

Plus, there is strong evidence that a previous Russian defector Alexander Litvinenko, was murdered by Russians.

On the other hand, he was part of a spy swap, and it doesn't make professional sense to swap your spies for theirs and then try to kill theirs later -- the whole idea of spy swaps, so useful for intelligence agencies, is deeply undermined by that.

And on the third hand, what do we know of the networks of assassins in Russia? There is good reason to believe that Putin is not the all-powerful all-seeing autocrat, despite the icy self-confidence. Perhaps some of Skripal's former colleagues decided to carry out a private mission. (My own best guess.)

 

Once again no understanding of the basic chemistry involved, deadly certainly but it’s all down to exposure levels etc. that’s why there are different levels of symptoms.

I’m not sure why you think the distance to Portland Down has any significance, unless you think they found someone to run out the door with a bucket full of it and a hand over his nose and mouth and that’s how far he got.

 

A couple of oddities with this new case (from Craig Murray).

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/07/the-amesbury-mystery/

According to the Daily Telegraph today, the unfortunate Charlie Rowley is a registered heroin addict, and if true Occam’s Razor would indicate that is a rather more likely reason for his present state than an inexplicably persistent weaponised nerve agent.

If it is however true that two separate attacks have been carried out with “novichok” a few miles either side of Porton Down, where “novichok” is synthesised and stored for “testing purposes”, what does Occam’s razor suggest is the source of the nerve agent? A question not one MSM journalist seems to have asked themselves tonight.

I am slightly puzzled by the picture the media are trying to paint of Charlie Rowley and Dawn Sturgess as homeless, unemployed addicts. The Guardian and Sky News both state that they were unemployed, yet Charlie was living in a very new house in Muggleton Road, Amesbury, which is pretty expensive. According to Zoopla homes range up to £430,000 and the cheapest ones are £270,000. They are all new build, on a new estate, which is still under construction.

 

I said it was a linkage. Both cases have occurred very near Porton Down.

As for the deadliness of "novichok", it was trumpeted by your own press and government incessantly.

Don't work yourself into a lather over it. That you came here to provide shade for the UK government is apparent. You're a day late and dollar short on that, however, and not very convincing to boot.

 

Two thoughts:

(1) Governments which try to assassinate people abroad are evil.
(2) Fidel Castro was lucky novichok wasn't around when he was getting up our nose.

 

By your post, you're stating that we are evil as we would have used novichok had it been available.

Well, we did have Operation Northwoods, but Kennedy wouldn't go for it.

 

No no no. Of course it's all right when WE do it!!!

 

Stripedhorse Quote - Have you swept the WMD lie under the rug already?

Can you tell me what weapons are considered WMD's ??

 

I have an exceedingly good idea how corrupt and criminal Western governments are, I just don't let that blind me to how much worse places like Russia, China & Syria are. Anyone who shills for regimes like those, and that is precisely what is going on here, has an irretrievably warped set of priorities.

Of course, the irony here is that you are accusing me of behaving like some deluded religious believer, yet you and the other conspiracy theorists are the ones who constantly claim to have 'special knowledge' of events. You guys are the ones who act like the cult with access to 'the truth', constantly repeating the same mantras & hiding behind the same questionable sources. I get it. It makes you feel clever & special - that somehow you can see things the rest of us can't. Sounds an awful lot like someone who worships a god or a pharoah.

Now, how about you favour us with your theory as to what happened. Clearly you have one, so out with it. Lets see which one of us looks more delusional. I think all the rational people already know how that is going to go.