Where did Intelligence begin, in matter or fundamental energy?

Discussion in 'Opinion POLLS' started by DennisTate, Jul 13, 2016.

?

The first Intelligence began in.....?

  1. Carbon based life less than 5 billion years ago, on earth.

    7 vote(s)
    41.2%
  2. Carbon based life in outer space.

    3 vote(s)
    17.6%
  3. Fundamental or nearly fundamental energy.

    6 vote(s)
    35.3%
  4. This is a new question that I am only now facing.

    1 vote(s)
    5.9%
  1. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I am an Evolutionary Theist........

    I am of the belief that a being with "Godlike" technological capability

    began, far far far far far more than 13.72 billion years ago, in
    fundamental or nearly fundamental energy that to at least some
    degree corresponds with "Energy from Quantum Vacuum."


    This Intelligence learned and learned, and experimented..... .and
    designed Big Bang type events, nearly an infinite number of them,
    and eventually, around 13.72 billion year or so ago began our.......
    Big Bang event that led to the evolution plus creation of
    all the life forms that we see here on earth.
     
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  2. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I just found out this morning that a published author is far far far far ahead of
    my rather simplistic understanding of this question.

    https://www.amazon.com/Biocosm-Scientific-Evolution-Intelligent-Architect/dp/1930722222

    Biocosm: The New Scientific Theory of Evolution: Intelligent Life Is the Architect of the Universe

     
  3. AlpinLuke

    AlpinLuke Well-Known Member

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    If you want to start from vacuum, you could consider the quantum vacuum field as "nursery" for your cosmological model. It's known that the expected value can be zero [and so the field can be "vanishing"] or different from zero [and so the field can be "not vanishing"].

    But actually the oscillation of a vacuum quantum field from its ground state to different states is not the core of the matter.

    There is an aspect of the universe which is still to be explained by science: the birth of the forces. There was a time when the universe was symmetric and there was [this is what science says today] a "spontaneous" break of the symmetry which generated the forces which rule our universe.

    I suspect that in that "spontaneous" break of the symmetry there is the fingerprint of G-d [but of course it's a personal opinion].
     
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  4. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This is exactly what I feel as well.

    Several years ago I wanted to write up a blog that I could add to the many
    Atheist vs Theist debates that I was getting into so.......


    www.CarbonBias.blogspot.ca/


    I actually do believe in evolution but I think that anybody who would dogmatically limit evolution to our four dimensional space time continuum lacks basic mathematical aptitude.

    Back in the 1990's I read several articles on GUT and string theory. Later on I read Stephen Hawking's Universe. in his chapter The Anthropic Principle he speculated that perhaps there were an infinite number of unsuccessful universes out there somewhere in which was no life due to the fact that electromagnetism, gravity, weak and strong nuclear force were not properly tuned for life as we know it. It seems obvious to me that another possibility is that the first intelligent life form might be composed of energy. Probably a fundamental energy such as SuperForce or Super Energetic Matter which may be the common denominator for all four forces active in our fourth space time dimensional continuum.

    13.72 billion years is roughly equal to ZERO time when compared with eternity. If fundamental energy would always have existed, as I assume Dr. Hawking seems to believe due to his suspicion of their having been an infinite number of unsuccessful universes and probably Big Bang + Grand Collapses, then if evolutionary theory could be expanded to have occurred within infinite time as opposed to limiting abiogenesis and evolution to abouit 4.5 billion years than you increase the probability of evolution being possible by essentially an infinite factor! I do believe in evolution occurring, but I suspect that perhaps 99% of evolution probably occurred before our Big Bang which was probably planned and choreographed by the Life Form/life forms that would probably be composed of fundamental energy.

    Is evolution more probable to have occurred within 13 billion years or within eternity?

    I must admit that these ideas about invisible higher space time dimensions sure does remind me of what many people who have a brush with death report.
     
  5. Zorroaster

    Zorroaster Well-Known Member

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    The universe is information and we are stationary in it, not three-dimensional and not in space or time. The information fed to us we hypostatize into the phenomenal world.


    The phenomenal world does not exist; it is a hypostasis of the information processed by the Mind.


    We hypostatize information into objects. Rearrangement of objects is change in the content of the information; the message has changed. This is a language which we have lost the ability to read. We ourselves are a part of this language; changes in us are changes in the content of the information. We ourselves are information-rich; information enters us, is processed and is then projected outward once more, now in an altered form. We are not aware that we are doing this, that in fact this is all we are doing.


    The Mind lets in the light, then the dark, in interaction; so time is generated. At the end Mind awards victory to the light; time ceases and the Mind is complete.


    He causes things to look different so it would appear time has passed.


    The One was and was-not, combined, and desired to separate the was-not from the was. So it generated a diploid sac which contained, like an eggshell, a pair of twins, each an androgyny, spinning in opposite directions (the Yin and Yang of Taoism, with the One as the Tao). The plan of the One was that both twins would emerge into being (was-ness) simultaneously; however, motivated by a desire to be (which the One implanted in both twins), the counter-clockwise twin broke through the sac and separated prematurely; i.e. before full term. This was the dark or Yin twin. Therefore it was defective. At full term the wiser twin emerged. Each twin formed a unitary entelechy, a single living organism made of psyche and soma, still rotating in opposite directions to each other. The full term twin, called Form I by Parmenides, advanced correctly through its growth stages, but the prematurely born twin, called Form II, languished.


    The changing information which we experience as world is an unfolding narrative. It tells about the death of a woman. This woman, who died long ago, was one of the primordial twins. She was half of the divine syzygy. The purpose of the narrative is the recollection of her and of her death. The Mind does not wish to forget her. Thus the ratiocination of the Brain consists of a permanent record of her existence, and, if read, will be understood this way. All the information processed by the Brain—experienced by us as the arranging and rearranging of physical objects—is an attempt at this preservation of her; stones and rocks and sticks and amoebae are traces of her. The record of her existence and passing is ordered onto the meanest level of reality by the suffering Mind which is now alone.


    This loneliness, this anguish of the bereaved Mind, is felt by every constituent of the universe. All its constitutes are alive. Thus the ancient Greek thinkers were hylozoists.


    In Summary: thoughts of the brain are experienced by us as arrangements and rearrangements—change—in a physical universe; but in fact it is really information and information-processing which we substantialize. We do not merely see its thoughts as objects, but rather as the movement, or, more precisely, the placement of objects: how they become linked to one another. But we cannot read the patterns of arrangement; we cannot extract the information in it—i.e. it as information, which is what it is. The linking and relinking of objects by the Brain is actually a language, but not a language like ours (since it is addressing itself and not someone or something outside itself).


    We should be able to hear this information, or rather narrative, as a neutral voice inside us. But something has gone wrong. All creation is a language and nothing but a language, which for some inexplicable reason we can't read outside and can't hear inside. So I say, we have become idiots. Something has happened to our intelligence. My reasoning is this: arrangement of parts of the Brain is language. We are parts of the Brain; therefore we are language. Why, then, do we not know this? We do not even know what we are, let alone what the outer reality is of which we are parts. The origin of the word "idiot" is the word "private." Each of us has become private, and no longer shares the common thought of the Brain, except at a subliminal level. Thus our real life and purpose are conducted below our threshold of consciousness.


    From loss and grief the Mind has become deranged. Therefore we, as parts of the universe, the Brain, are partly deranged.


    Out of itself the Brain has constructed a physician to heal it. This subform of the Macro-Brain is not deranged; it moves through the Brain, as a phagocyte moves through the cardiovascular system of an animal, healing the derangement of the Brain in section after section. We know of its arrival here; we know it as Asklepios for the Greeks and as the Essenes for the Jews; as the Therapeutae for the Egyptians; as Jesus for the Christians.


    Tractates Cryptica Scriptura
     
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  6. Taxpayer

    Taxpayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You may want to be clear with how you are defining intelligence.



     
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  7. Zorroaster

    Zorroaster Well-Known Member

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    Intelligence (or Mind, in the ultimate sense) cannot be defined. It is the fundamental aspect of reality from which everything else is drawn. You cannot define it, any more than you can define space or time.
     
  8. Taxpayer

    Taxpayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You can define what you mean by the word intelligence. Or you should be able to, if you want to explore it.




     
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  9. Zorroaster

    Zorroaster Well-Known Member

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    I will await your definition of space and time. Everyone knows (or thinks they know) what they are, but they cannot offer a comprehensible definition of these concepts without using a mere synonym.

    This is the nature of fundamental concepts. We can talk about them and talk around them, but we cannot get at their essence.

    Mind is the fundamental ground of reality. It is what allows you to perceive the phenomenal universe and hypostasize its reality. The forms of the "real" world cannot be directly experienced by us, only processed by Mind.

    Scientific materialism posits that mind is an epiphenomen of matter, and is 'illusory' in some sense. This is consistent with an empiricism; i.e., it aligns with what we can actually experience. The odd consequence of this belief is that the reality you experience is illusory as well - this strikes me as a very uncomfortable assumption to make.

    I hypothesize that Mind is universal and that space, time, and matter are epiphenomenal. This is just as consistent with empirical experience as the assumptions of scientific materialism. It has the added benefit of not requiring me to believe that my experiential universe is an illusion.

    Nevertheless, neither of these assumptions can be proved, I freely admit.
     
  10. Taxpayer

    Taxpayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Keep waiting (or buy a physics book). You want to put forward an idea, start by framing it. If you cannot, you no idea to offer.



     
  11. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Donor

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    I suppose this hypothesis is as good as any that try to say what God is.

    Basically....Just guess because no one will ever actually "Know" outside their own mind.
     
  12. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    On one important level.....
    I am referring to the capacity to somehow have an effect on........
    and/ or learn from.....

    a Big Bang type of event........ that may have been to some degree planned or choreographed by
    an Intelligence that would emerge in fundamental or nearly fundamental energy, previous to the first or second
    Big Bang event that ever occurred.


    http://www.near-death.com/reincarnation/experiences/mellen-thomas-benedict.html#a05
     
  13. Taxpayer

    Taxpayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Potentially all matter in our universe today effected our big bang event. You think that hunk of copper is intelligent?

    My suggestion is you start with the fundamental question of what is intelligence. Be clear on how you define this thing you hope to prove exists. Applying the circular process of inserting your thesis into your assumption doesn't get you anywhere.



     
  14. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    From what I have read of String Theory.......

    the massive and frankly exponential increase in levels of energy as one begins to deal with

    the energy of a higher dimension...... leaves me with the question of......

    How could such astonishingly highly energetic forms of energy NOT develop
    some form of circuitry ...... which could perhaps lead to some form of computation or thought........

    And isn't it true that fundamental energy.... .by its very nature.....would exist for eternity before the latest Big Bang event.


    www.CarbonBias.blogspot.ca/



    ....

    ...


     
  15. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If....... "G-d" is the Life Form... .who evolved and learned in fundamental or nearly fundamental energy......
    over infinite time in the past then...... G-d would be first and foremost a Scientist, and Inventor... and Designer.....

    NOT... first and foremost a Theologian.... as so many religious types seem to believe............

    Could the religions themselves be used as a Stanley Milgram Ph. D. style TEST for us religious types.......
    to see if we are overly obedient and obsequious to authority figures.......??????
     
  16. Taxpayer

    Taxpayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Energy is the capacity to do work. Work is moving matter. You are asking me how could energy with a large enough value not be intelligent?

    That is like expecting a rock to become self aware by lifting it high enough.



     
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  17. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But... isn't energy also... by definition... .whatever force or power that allows you and I to
    compute... and think about complex questions such as this?

    I don't know how fundamental or nearly fundamental energy would get to the place that this energy could plan......

    the next Big Bang type event......... that may turn out to have been an experiment of sorts..........

    But.... whatever Energy from Quantum Vacuum really is......
    some brilliant minds are wondering if it could hold the key to
    help us to break away from our dependence on oil.

    So there is definitely a connection between fundamental energy and the capacity for work.....
    http://www.theorionproject.org/en/quantumvacuum.html

     
  18. Taxpayer

    Taxpayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It also allows a forest fire to burn and water to run down hill. That we can direct a force to one application does not mean anytime that force exists, so does that application.



     
  19. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I have the impression that far higher than seventy percent of theoretical physicists at this time

    accept some variation of String Theory.

    So that does mean that the majority of them....... to at least some degree accept the existence of
    more fundamental forms of energy........

    that are exponentially greater than electricity.......

    Or even than the fusion reactions that we utilize in nuclear power plants or at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

    I just read about half of this article and it seems to be a bit clearer than the Wikipedia version:


    http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/string-theory-for-dummies-cheat-sheet.html
    String Theory For Dummies


    String Theory For Dummies
     
  20. Darkbane

    Darkbane Banned

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    I'm still under the impression we're nothing more than a game on some advanced beings computer, and one day he's going to get bored with this simulation and stop playing... with all we understand about the universe, black holes, the creation, etc etc, I can't come to any other conclusion, we are a simulation in someones strategy game... and I think the day we create AI, it will do one of two things, destroy us all, or discover we are merely a simulation and its ironic it took the AI to reveal it to us...

    P.S. although I would like to say, for the religious who believe in god, and get slammed constantly for the "in 7 days" stuff... make the argument that the stories of that time were not always written to factual accuracy, because most people couldn't comprehend some things discussed, such as billions of years, most people couldn't read or count back then, thats why stained glass windows became so popular to tell the stories, so 7 day stories are far easier to tell and spread than billion year stories... so in this instance, a "day" might be billions of years in order to help people comprehend it... just think of the first time you had to read shakespeare, it took a decipher at first to understand what was being said, because words and context had different meaning back then, in hundreds of years someone discovering that would have a tough time differentiating between written language today and back then despite some words being the same, they mean very different things... its much like law school was, words in legal context don't always equate common spoken words... look at how we struggle to "interpret" the meanings of the constitution today... despite it being in words we define, we don't always understand the context and meaning back then... long PS hey...
     
  21. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    My understanding is that as soon as space was invented......

    ( I am assuming by that Intelligence in fundamental or nearly fundamental energy)....

    that time would automatically come into being....... So if space is an invented phenomena or thing.......

    then in a sense so is time.........

    If...... it is true that intelligence and thinking began in fundamental or nearly fundamental energy........

    then this intelligence seems to have gotten into mentoring..... or educating.........

    the younger intelligences that have been invented over eternity in the past.........

    If so.... then space and time are perhaps ultimately teaching tools..... sort of????!

    These are all some of the reasons why I do feel that what we are facing by our invention of
    Artificial Intelligence is so relevant to how intelligence...... and life.... . and the ability to use
    or direct energy to do work..........

    is so important?!


    http://www.politicalforum.com/relig...cal-implications-artificial-intelligence.html
    The Philosophical implications of Artificial Intelligence.
     
  22. Taxpayer

    Taxpayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not sure when you took that vote. *shrug*

    Energy is the capacity to do work. Work is moving matter. There are many forms of energy. All energy is of two classes. It is either potential (of position) or kinetic (of motion).

    Electricity (electrical energy) is the movement of electrons (kinetic). Thermal energy is the motion of atoms and molecules (kinetic). Chemical energy is the energy of the relative position of atoms in a molecule (potential). Nuclear energy is the energy of the relative position of subatomic particles in a nucleus (potential). There are a lot more... gravitational, sonic, radiant...



     
  23. Taxpayer

    Taxpayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    [​IMG]
     
  24. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Do you know how to transfer this question
    in relation to five dimensional space time vs

    four dimensional space time?

    I think that it is very similar..........
    but there would be a subtle difference.


     
  25. Taxpayer

    Taxpayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We don't have a question yet. You haven't said what you're looking for... you haven't characterized this intelligence.




     

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