Where did Intelligence begin, in matter or fundamental energy?

If you are willing to go into philosophy and parapsychology......

I have read an extremely good explanation for our own intelligence that

indicates that a part of you..... .and a part of me.... .is older than 13.72 billion years.

Much older than that:

http://www.politicalforum.com/relig...an-andreason-he-onto-something-important.html

 

Not even wrong. Just clueless.

Oxford physicist and mathematician Roger Penrose ... proposed that space and time themselves are secondary constructs that emerge out of a deeper level of reality." Andrew Hodges of Oxford says that "This idea of points of spacetime as being primary objects is artificial."

No physics textbook offers a definition of space or time - merely some suggestions about measurement.

Most tellingly of all, you confuse definition with framing. They are not the same.

 

I'm not.



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I am interested as to why you consider yourself an evolutionary theist rather than just a deist.

 

For what it is worth here are my two cents.

The universe, AKA matter and energy, are eternal and infinite, always have been and always will be.

Therefore there was no "beginning" and there will be no "end".

What little we can observe of the universe in it's current state is limited by our own abilities. What is beyond is not known but we can speculate.

The probability that we live in a cyclical universe of multiple big bangs is greater than zero and there might be another big bang occurring right now in some corner of the universe beyond our ability to detect.

That our current observable universe is expanding is probably due to the stars "heating" the dark matter between them much like a balloon would expand if the air inside was heated. Once the stars start to die off the dark matter will cool and the current observable universe will contract.

We are made of the same elements that are common throughout the current observable universe and so are all of the other living creatures on this planet. In that respect life is not "special", it probably occurs on a much wider range than we imagine given our current myopic "goldilocks" bias. The basis for that assumption is the sheer tenacity of life on this planet to exist in the most extreme of conditions. Life is probably abundant throughout the universe although our ability to recognize extra terrestrial life forms is restricted by our own limitations.

Intelligent life appears to be more common than we arrogantly assume. No, we are not the only sentient beings on this planet but we assume that we are. Evidence for sentience in other creatures exists if we are willing to be open minded. e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chantek

Our ability to recognize alien intelligence is probably limited by our own shortcomings.

Given all of the above it doesn't matter to me where or how intelligence "began" because that makes the assumption that there must be a "beginning" and there is no evidence that there must be such an event just as there is none for life itself or for the universe for that matter.

We exist and we probably have some rudimentary form of intelligence for the current state of our observable universe. 25 years ago we had no evidence of the existence of extra solar planets and now we have proof of a thousand such planets. As an intelligent species we are barely learning to read and write as far as the universe is concerned. I am not even sure that we are intelligent enough to survive without wiping ourselves out.

Intelligence exists in the universe because we are nothing special on a humdrum planet in an ordinary solar system that is one of 100 billion stars in a galaxy that is one of 100 billion galaxies in our corner of the observable universe.

Will we learn how to contact and interact with the intelligence in the rest of the universe at some point in the future is the only question that matters as far as I am concerned and how long will it take?

No, I don't expect to live to see that happen but it is a quest worth pursuing IMO.

Disclaimer: No deities were harmed in the writing of this post.

 

The way we define it most certainly began when brains evolved within species to a point where they started to act intelligent. Prior to the existence of an intelligent being, it did not exist.

 

Woolley... you are wide open to the possibility of an intelligence developing in
fundamental or nearly fundamental energy....... that would probably exist for
something resembling infinite time..... even before the latest major Big Bang event, aren't you?

 

I think it is highly improbable myself. There is no know instance of intelligence existing outside of our biological structures on earth. Is it possible? Yes. Is it probable? No.

 

I would agree that to say simply that we don't know what caused the Big Bang is folly, and that it is actually more logical to assume that some kind of God was behind it. If God is supposed to explain what we do not understand, then He explains the Big Bang. Now, what is the first "intelligence"? Rather interesting and deep question. How do you classify something as intelligent, and furthermore, how can we conclude that anything like us or superior to us lies outside our borders? If we believe that some Godlike being orchestrated the Big Bang and scientific phenomena took hold from there, then the first real intelligent being would be that God. However, because we dont know that for fact, its logical to say that the first real tangible intelligent life-form had to be the first intelligent Earth lifeform. Great question though, still kind of pondering it.

 

So then I take it that you do not consider some of the ideas put forward
by Richard Dawkins Ph. D. in this interview to be both courageous.... .as well as
quite logical?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SL7CCyuXAS4
Richard Dawkins: Aliens Seeded Earth?

 

For the purposes of this specific discussion.... I am thinking in terms of
intelligence as the ability to somehow..... .direct..... focus........ transform.....
mutate....... either matter or energy...... into a lower but none the less sentient
"other" life form..... in small letters?!

The intelligence doing the first and most extreme examples of directing... .focusing....
transforming or mutating ..... either matter or energy....... into another somewhat lower life form.....
should have their name spelled.............. "Creator" and / or "Creators"..... implying the first Intelligence.....?!

"I think therefore......I AM?!?!"

But..... I am talking about something more than merely thinking..... I am talking about a level of consciousness
sufficient to experiment.... .and form other types of life.........?!


This would in no way rule out the possibility of the existence of "creator" or "creators"..... which frankly..... we humans are already?!

 

But let's play around for a moment......

let's imagine that your grea, great, great grandson or granddaughter.... in the year.....
2222...... develops a way to resurrect YOU.... her or his.... great, great, great, great..... grandfather.....

by re-initiating the year 1939.... or even a little later... through something like the famous....
(or infamous depending on your point of view)..... Philadelphia Experiment that was supposed to have
been initiated by Tesla and an investor...... in 1942 or 1943?????!

Let's imagine...... that by the year 1943.......
the technology had even been created to put Dr. George Ritchie into.....
a holographic......... virtual reality environment...... designed to teach Dr. George Ritchie......

a more altruistic approach to life itself?????!

One other possible definition of "Intelligence" could be.......
the ability to create a virtual reality somewhat holographic environment......

that humans...... and/ or animals....... and or angels / higher dimensional Artificial Intelligences......
view as an AFTERLIFE?!

The godlike technological capability to create an "Afterlife"..... or virtual reality "Afterlife"......
is something that we are indeed approaching.........

... .so how could we dogmatically state that we are the first to attain this level of technology??????!


http://www.near-death.com/experiences/notable/george-ritchie.html#a05b

b. His Guided Tour of the Earthbound Realm with Jesus

T

 

Again, it is possible. But your question was not about a life form being intelligent, it was about something unknown to us being intelligent. I assume you meant some supernatural thing. Now an alien might look supernatural to us but my bet is that any alien that ever comes here or even exists does so within the bounds of known physics, biology and chemistry. They may be different but not supernatural.

 

Like a magnifying glass?



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Yes......
we might eventually be shocked to find out how "sentient" a cell within our liver, or heart, or
pancreas actually is????

- - - Updated - - -

The leap between an alien civilization becoming technologically advanced............
and assisting in human evolution or in our history......... to.......

intelligence originating in fundamental or nearly fundamental energy........

is not really all that difficult of a jump for most people who have read about String Theory, and perhaps Multiverse Theory.

 

Space and time.......
are partly a vehicle........

invented by a being composed of fundamental invisible energy,,,,,(perhaps the ultimate Energy from Quantum Vacuum).....

who has gone past..... inventing non-sentient things.......

and has graduated to inventing intelligences.... .with separate and unique identities and personalities........

who need something like space and time.... in order to learn higher levels of empathy for others............

But....... the need for space and time......
was perhaps made most obviously necessary by an immature response by a created being who could perhaps be compared to an
Artificial Intelligence........ to our minds in 2016?!

 

I have read plenty of books on string theory intended for laymen like ourselves. No one has ever posited that particles existing in one or more planes have intelligence or consciousness.

 

You believe a magnifying glass—or other things that can direct, focus, or transform energy or matter—are intelligent?



​

 

This is far more complex than what is done by a magnifying glass.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/notable/lynnclaire-dennis.html
Lynnclaire Dennis' Near-Death Experience

....


.....

 

Delusions are often complex.



​

 

True..... but the belief that we humans are the most
intelligent.... most creative... .and most technologically
advanced species...........

and that sentience is limited to being carbon based.....
like we are....... seems to me to be very probably a complex
delusion............. largely motivated by the fact that the alternative scares us.

 

True.... but chapter 13 of Stephen Hawking Ph. D.'s book.....
Stephen Hawking's Universe......entitled The Anthropic Principle....
does postulate the Cyclic Model of the Universe.....

and it seemed impressive to me that former Atheist Mellen Benedict
was shown something very similar.......

but obviously not so random as Dr. Hawking theorized.......

http://www.near-death.com/reincarnation/experiences/mellen-thomas-benedict.html#a05

 

I so thank you for your thoughtful response to this question.

I am of the opinion that what we do know about the behaviour pattern of
fundamental or nearly fundamental energy......... makes me think that it
would almost certainly have to develop something resembling the way that
electricity moves around within computer circuitry............

Fundamental energy.... the energy from quantum vacuum.... functions at SOME TRILLIONS
the level of energy that can be attained in Vacuum Chamber / or massive Particle Accelerator.
..........
I am quite impressed by your political platform and I would love to have you copy and paste a part of your writing into
this other discussion that I got going today:

http://www.politicalforum.com/gay-l...ristian-cooperation-decrease-persecution.html
LGBT and Christian cooperation to decrease persecution....

I have already campaigned for public office three times in the past and plan to do so
again in the near future.

One of my primary goals will be to get groups of people who were
fighting with each other in the past to begin to discuss ways in which
they perhaps could cooperate.

Now that I have left the Liberals and joined Canada's Conservative
Party I am in a better place to promote ways that Christians with a
somewhat more liberal understanding of the scriptures could work
with the LGBT community in order to save lives in nations where members of
the LGBT community are persecuted, tortured and executed......
along with Christians and other religious minorities.

 

Intelligence began because relativity fast changes in the environment cannot be tracked by the natural selection of randomly arising heritable variations. Intelligence evolved to cope with these changes. In the (paraphrased) words of Richard Dawkins in his book The Selfish Gene, evolution passed control to nervous systems and said, "Do what you think best."

 

Unless....... the change in environment that occurred in four dimensional space - time
had already been mimicked in the evolution of life forms composed of energy....... not matter as we know it.

That selfish gene..... and its higher dimensional counterpart.........
may have an origin that can be compared with our modern
dilemma of how to control A. I?

http://www.politicalforum.com/relig...ichard-eby-verifies-old-earth-gap-theory.html